Hard to predict animal behavior

[benkahuna]

Here's an interesting article I just happened upon yesterday:

Well, a teaser, at least:

Posted on Fri, Oct. 07, 2005



R E L A T E D C O N T E N T

Lou Pimental
This is the deer suspected of goring two dogs and confronting two others in Orinda.


R E L A T E D L I N K S
• Forum: What should be done about the deer?
• Blog: Gary Bogue on pets and wildlife
• Python bursts after trying to eat gator





Aggressive buck terrorizes Orinda

By Denis Cuff

CONTRA COSTA TIMES


ORINDA - A scar-faced rogue deer is attacking dogs and unnerving some residents in this woodsy town.

He's Bambi gone ballistic.

The black-tailed buck deer gored a dog to death in its yard a short distance from its owner, and then wounded a second dog in another yard, according to neighbors, police, and a Fish and Game warden.


There was a similarly odd story a few years back about ravens attacking and killing sheep in some European country (I think Switzerland).


I find these stories interesting because they illustrate that animals do not behave simply as we expect. I was told in neuroanatomy that any animal with a cortex can learn unique behaviors not simply a program from their genetics (obviously genetics establishes the parameters of their behavior--expressed genetics).

I'm also told that traditional vegatarian animals and carnivorous animals mix up their diets more than most people think eating dense protein or vegatable matter as well.

"Beware the beast man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, for he is the harbinger of death."
It's not long before the apes rise against their human masters.

But seriously, these are all isolated incidents I presume. Is it possible for a species to learn a new behaviour. Like from your article, could buck deer in general learn to gore dogs and other smaller animals that are potential attackers. Or does this already happen in nature?

Similarly, could ravens who are running out of their normal food supply start attacking and killing sheep for food? Was the ravens attacking the sheep just one case or was this happening throughout the region?
It's quite fascinating.

I also saw the footage of the giant python that tried to eat the crocodile. It ate the crock whole and then after a 24 hour struggle, the python's stomach exploded killing both creatures.

[benkahuna]

I saw that python one too. What a silly python!

As for a species learning a behavior, I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying once you achieve a certain type of brain structure (a cortex), an individual animal can learn or otherwise develop unique behaviors. In the case of the ravens, I'd say they individually learned that by working together, they could take down a sheep (I recall the number of them attacking sheep as 19). A motor cortex even allows unique style of movement or movements.

The ravens were very short on food. If other ravens saw the behavior, I'd bet they could learn from it though as ravens are known to be very good at learning. I just looked up the animal group name and found a group of ravens isn't also called a murder. Some missed irony there. The group is also called an unkindness. I guess that fits. :P

I'm sort of fascinated by ravens. You can be in the middle of nowhere in an inhospitable climate where there seems to be very limited food (even from travelers, garbage from a lone business or a tourist spot) and there will be some raven just hanging out like it makes sense.

All these incidents were definitely isolated.

When I was in Thailand, any tiger that killed humans was always hunted down and killed. The main justification was that most humans tended to be very easy hunting and the tigress would teach her cubs to hunt humans too once she got her first kill.

Another one I've found interesting is the stories about drunken rampaging elephants in Asia. Once they got their first drink, they tended to get very aggressive, destructive and seek out more booze. Mean drunks, those elephants...

[sexdrugsmoney]

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I find these stories interesting because they illustrate that animals do not behave simply as we expect. I was told in neuroanatomy that any animal with a cortex can learn unique behaviors not simply a program from their genetics (obviously genetics establishes the parameters of their behavior--expressed genetics).

I'm also told that traditional vegatarian animals and carnivorous animals mix up their diets more than most people think eating dense protein or vegatable matter as well.

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benkahuna, a discussion you might like to have with your Jewish (by religion) friends one time on this point.

In Bereishit (Genesis) it is commonly believed that in the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve didn't eat meat, but only after the "fall" of mankind by disobeying God did they eat meat.

Interesting question to ask your Jewish friends if whether they believe Adam and Eve discovered this on their own (by their cortex) or whether God made them aware of it. (ie - believe God made them directly aware of it as in "Hey guys, see 'Henry the sheep' over there, he also doubles as food"?)

[benkahuna]

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[ QUOTE ]

I find these stories interesting because they illustrate that animals do not behave simply as we expect. I was told in neuroanatomy that any animal with a cortex can learn unique behaviors not simply a program from their genetics (obviously genetics establishes the parameters of their behavior--expressed genetics).

I'm also told that traditional vegatarian animals and carnivorous animals mix up their diets more than most people think eating dense protein or vegatable matter as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

benkahuna, a discussion you might like to have with your Jewish (by religion) friends one time on this point.

In Bereishit (Genesis) it is commonly believed that in the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve didn't eat meat, but only after the "fall" of mankind by disobeying God did they eat meat.

Interesting question to ask your Jewish friends if whether they believe Adam and Eve discovered this on their own (by their cortex) or whether God made them aware of it. (ie - believe God made them directly aware of it as in "Hey guys, see 'Henry the sheep' over there, he also doubles as food"?)

[/ QUOTE ]


My Jewish friends are not really religious, but it would be a question producing revealing answers if they were.

Does G-d have to sneak into every discussion in this forum? :P Ick.

My take is that the cortex exists in animals as phyogenetically distant as the turtle and seems to have the same implications in all animals that have one. G-d being all powerful could, in this situation, have allowed such discoveries to occur by chance (because the cortex enables learning) or somehow intervened to make it happen.

[sexdrugsmoney]

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Does G-d have to sneak into every discussion in this forum? :P Ick.

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I'm sorry, I completely understand this sentiment.

I enjoy discussing God and religion because I believe they are big issues that pertain to man, but would also like to discuss many other things with SMP like Eugenics and morals etc, but it does seem like "The Atheist Club" &amp; "The Christian Club" are the two big parties in 'SMP Politics' therefore most discussions are the back-and-forth transfer of posts between positions. (not saying there is anything wrong with this type of discourse but occasionally 'netural' threads like this one and my Bill Bennett one would be nice)

But for the record I enjoyed your post for what it is, and had no intention of "steering" this thread towards a discussion about God and the cortex.

Cheers,
SDM