Hand I played terribly

[sean c]

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i want it 5+ handed for 2 bets, not 1

stealthcow-

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Huh? Why?

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So you are getting a pot size equivelent to the odds of making a set.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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I don't think five players is enough.

[Luv2DriveTT]

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i want it 5+ handed for 2 bets, not 1

stealthcow-

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Huh? Why?

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So you are getting a pot size equivelent to the odds of making a set.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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I don't think five players is enough.

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Think implied....

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[sean c]

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i want it 5+ handed for 2 bets, not 1

stealthcow-

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Huh? Why?

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So you are getting a pot size equivelent to the odds of making a set.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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I don't think five players is enough.

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Think implied....

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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vs the times your set doesn't win i still don't think five is enough but i could be wrong.

[mack848]

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vs the times your set doesn't win i still don't think five is enough but i could be wrong.

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You'll usually make up 4BB by the river if you hit, with 4 or 5 opponents.

The times you hit and lose are, at least partially, balanced by the times you don't hit a set, but still win.

[SeaEagle]

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So you are getting a pot size equivelent to the odds of making a set.


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Huh?

Odds of making a set are 7.5-1. You are only getting 'set value' from a raise if there are more than 7.5 people in the hand. 88 isn't going to win UI against a lot of players so the best way to play 88 multiway is to see the flop as cheaply as possible.

88 is an excellent hand 2- or 3-way and often the best PF play is to raise w/ 88 if you think you can limit your opponents. Here, with 2 limpers already in and lots of people left to act, raising is not +EV.

[mtdoak]

Make it on the flop. Overpair+OESD? I'm not slowing down. AND you have 2 of the stopper cards for the straight.

[speirs]

Preflop I don't know if I would call or raise. It's close. On the flop I like the bet, hoping the pf raiser will thin the field with a raise. I will go to war on the flop and see what develops on the turn.

[Luv2DriveTT]

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So you are getting a pot size equivalent to the odds of making a set.


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Huh?

Odds of making a set are 7.5-1. You are only getting 'set value' from a raise if there are more than 7.5 people in the hand. 88 is not going to win UI against a lot of players so the best way to play 88 multiway is to see the flop as cheaply as possible.

88 is an excellent hand 2- or 3-way and often the best PF play is to raise w/ 88 if you think you can limit your opponents. Here, with 2 limpers already in and lots of people left to act, raising is not +EV.

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The second 1/2 of your statement is correct (don’t raise with 88 in this hand), but it's perfectly fine to raise with 88 pre-flop when you have 5+ players in the pot, because when the hero does flop a set of eights he will usually get that extra 2.5 bets that are implied nearly 100% of the time. This concept is shown is Small Stakes Hold’em’s “loose” charts… Ed recommends raising with 88 from late position in most pots. If you have 5 limpers to you, this is an excellent time to pop the field with a raise.

Lets get back on track, this is NOT what Justin A's hand is about, there are much more interesting things to discuss.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[SeaEagle]

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The second 1/2 of your statement is correct (don’t raise with 88 in this hand), but it's perfectly fine to raise with 88 pre-flop when you have 5+ players in the pot, because when the hero does flop a set of eights he will usually get that extra 2.5 bets that are implied nearly 100% of the time. This concept is shown is Small Stakes Hold’em’s “loose” charts… Ed recommends raising with 88 from late position in most pots. If you have 5 limpers to you, this is an excellent time to pop the field with a raise.

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You'll get the implied bets regardless of whether you raise PF or not. With the minor except of weak draws calling because of the bigger pot, raising PF doesn't have any impact on your ability to collect implied bets. In fact, raising PF cuts your implied odds in half, and doubles the number of bets you need to collect postflop in order to make a long-term profit.

As I said in my last post, raising 88 in LP is great if you can limit the field since it plays so well HU. But 5 limpers to you on the button isn't a very good place to raise 88.

Put another way, as a general rule, if you're pretty sure you can't win the hand UI, then don't put extra chips in before you see the flop. With 5 limpers, 88 is seldom going to win UI.

One could argue that you have an equity edge over 5 limpers, and you do, but much of the edge you have is based on cards you'll never see. For instance, PokerStove shows 88 with 24% equity against 5 random hands (each of the other hands having 15%). But 8% of the time, you'll make your set on the turn or river and it's unlikely you'll see either of these streets with 5 other players in the pot. So, really, you have a tiny, if any, equity edge PF.

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Lets get back on track, this is NOT what Justin A's hand is about, there are much more interesting things to discuss.


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I realize it's hijacking the thread, but I think overplaying pairs PF is one of the more common mistakes I see otherwise decent limit players make.

[Justin A]

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I'm putting UTG on a flush draw or a 5 once he donkbets the turn. Then again that hand range may be much too narrow. MP2 either has overcards or a mid PP as his stats imply he'll fastplay a made hand. So folding the river is may be a bad play.

As for where you played the hand badly I can only think of the flop then.

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The river is what I was getting at.

As soon as I pressed the call button I realized my mistake. I think this is a pretty clear raise. UTG can have a ton of hands, including a lot of pair+ straight draw combos. The fact that he limped UTG and he's unknown leads me to believe he sucks, even though it's not necessarily the case. On the river there's 12 bets in the pot when it gets to me, and I think I'm ahead of UTG a very good amount of the time. However, the way MP2 played it, I think he's got a pair better than mine a decent amount of the time, and he'll most likely fold it if I raise.

I haven't done the math on it, but my guess is that this is a clear raise.

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This has been a good thread on postflop play.

I will agree that a river raise might get MP2 to fold a higher pocket pair. But for the life of me I can't put UTG on anything that we beat.

What's his hand range? It would make more sense to C/R with trip fives, so maybe we can discount that hand. If he donked the turn with a heart flush draw, then he made his flush.

What are we putting him on here?

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You make some very good points here, and it looks like I need to rethink this river. I'm going to run some math while I'm at school today and come back to this thread later.