Is this collusion?

[jnh24]

Cast:
Hero, Friend, Boss, Boss'Friend, Boss'Bro

Background:
Friend hosts a weekly home game at which Hero is a regular. Boss wants to play so Hero invites hime. He turns out to be one of the worst player Hero has encountered at home, casino or online games. Boss is LPP and a huge donator.

The weekly game breaks because most participants are away for the summer. Boss invites Boss'Friend (a LAGish gambler) and Boss'Bro (an LPP who was been playing for 2 weeks). He also invites Hero and asks him to bring a few friends/roommates who want to play. Hero doesnt want to run over a $10 game so he invites only one, Friend.

Story:
$10 buy in tourney results in Hero and Friend splitting 50-50 when getting to heads-up. The chips counts were close and we didnt want to play heads up for an hour while the other 3 sat around watching. We then played SH limit, .25-.50 for an hour or so. Hero and Friend make a few bucks, Boss'Friend doubles his buy in while Boss'Bro and Boss drop 1 buy-in each. During this game, Boss'Friend, the LAG, observes that Hero and Friend do not play many, if any, hands agasint one another. Game ends and Friend invites all to play in our home game when it starts back up, if they are interested.

On the drive home, Friend mentions the LAGs comment. Hero thinks it was simply an observation from a guy who admittted he will see any flop and saw that each of us played very few. Obviously, we wouldnt play many together. Friend thinks LAG may be implying collusion.

Boss walks into work the next morning and opens with "Did you enjoy taking our money last night?" Hero laughs. Boss states that "It was just like in Rounders. We were talking about it after you left." Hero thinks WTF? and asks Boss if he really believes that Hero and Friend cheated/colluded in a $10 home game. Boss shrugs and gives a look along the lines of "I don't know; you tell me."

Questions:
Is Hero wrong to be pissed at the Boss' implication of cheating and/or colluding, especially because the two work together in a job where integrity is valued very highly?

Should Boss be invited back to regular home game if he truly believes he was swindled? What about Boss'Bro or Boss'Friend?

Is it cheating or colluding if Hero expected that he and Friend would finish in the top 2?

Is it cheating or colluding if Hero and Friend did not play many hands against each other? What if Hero and Friend always avoid each other in any game because there is mutual respect for the other's skill? And is this mitigated by the fact that, if heads up, Hero and Friend contract a case of FPS?

Thanks guys

[Dbldaggers]

You are most likely in a know win situation here.

I would not invite my boss or his friends back. Nothing good will come of it.

If they lose they will just say collusion. Or, they will be upset you and your friend take the game too seriously. Many people want to gamble and keep it light and low limit.

Unless you need politically at work to play against your boss and purposely lose, I would never play against him again.

I have friends that I avoid playing hands against in a big game against unknowns. Your right about respecting your friend's ability.

Good luck, but mend the fences at work and never ever play against your boss. Work is usually politically complicated enough without adding accusations of cheating to the plate.


DD

[masse75]

[ QUOTE ]
During this game, Boss'Friend, the LAG, observes that Hero and Friend do not play many, if any, hands agasint one another.
..............................
Boss walks into work the next morning and opens with "Did you enjoy taking our money last night?" Hero laughs. Boss states that "It was just like in Rounders. We were talking about it after you left." Hero thinks WTF? and asks Boss if he really believes that Hero and Friend cheated/colluded in a $10 home game. Boss shrugs and gives a look along the lines of "I don't know; you tell me."


[/ QUOTE ]

OK...to begin, I agree with the other guys' assessment. You are in a no-win situation.

Now...let's look at your boss' logic. You two do NOT play many hands against each other. How is that collusion? Most idiots that try to collude have one guy pumping the pot with garbage while the other has a strong hand...catching someone in between. Evidently you and your friend know how to play some poker...you choose decent starting hands to play, and otherwise stay out of the game. These guys obviously figure any 2 cards can win...and when they don't, they were obviously 'cheated.'

I wouldn't bring it up again--Let it die. If your boss does, have someone else in the conversation and explain your logic (the other person is there so that if your boss ever seeks retribution by punishing you at work, you've got a witness).

Did he think you were stacking the deck?

[Lottery Larry]

"How is that collusion?"

Think soft-playing each other. Also, signaling- if good player #1 drops out a lot when GP#2 has a hand (and wins, beating the weak players), could he be getting signals from GP#2?

That, and many more uninformed paranoid scenarios, are ones that they could imagine.

[Lottery Larry]

[ QUOTE ]
Story:
$10 buy in tourney results in Hero and Friend splitting 50-50 when getting to heads-up. The chips counts were close and we didnt want to play heads up for an hour while the other 3 sat around watching.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you announce this verbally? "Joe, let's just split the money so everyone doesn't have to wait around watching"


"We then played SH limit, .25-.50 for an hour or so."

Is this short-handed limit holdem? Where the two of you pretty aggressive in most hands (as you should be) but dropping out against each other? To the uninformed, that could look bad.

"and Friend invites all to play in our home game when it starts back up, if they are interested."

Translated to their ears- "And Friend invites all of us suckers to play at his game"

"Is it cheating or colluding if Hero expected that he and Friend would finish in the top 2?"

Well, if you WERE cheating, you'd expect to end up in the top 2 as well, right? Was it supposed to be winner-take-all, or were two spots being paid?

"Is it cheating or colluding if Hero and Friend did not play many hands against each other? "
No to all of these

"And is this mitigated by the fact that, if heads up, Hero and Friend contract a case of FPS? "

No, it isn't- FPS can make it look worse- "he raises against me, but checks [missed check-raise attempt] against his partner and look what he turned over!"


"Boss walks into work the next morning and opens with "Did you enjoy taking our money last night?" Hero laughs. Boss states that "It was just like in Rounders. We were talking about it after you left." Hero thinks WTF? and asks Boss if he really believes that Hero and Friend cheated/colluded in a $10 home game. Boss shrugs and gives a look along the lines of "I don't know; you tell me."

Is Hero wrong to be pissed at the Boss' implication of cheating and/or colluding, especially because the two work together in a job where integrity is valued very highly?

Big, BIG problem. Whether this is a "know-win" situation or not, I know it's a "can LOSE" one big-time. Getting angry, while justified, isn't going to help:
You get angry, refuse to play cards with them anymore = big cheater got caught.

IMHO, you CANNOT let this just slide- this can easily poison your work reputation. When you can, sit down with your boss and calmly explain that your integrity and reputation are very important, as your boss surely realizes, and explain some of the things that went on, and WHY.

If you can give your boss some strategy training, without offending his ego, that would be even better. He can start beating up on his crappy-playing friends and your play will make more sense.

"
Should Boss be invited back to regular home game if he truly believes he was swindled? What about Boss'Bro or Boss'Friend?"

That's a tough one. If your boss doesn't become a better player, future games will just reinforce the tag-team image you'll have- plus they'll be pissed off at getting slaughtered.

Good luck

[ClonexxSA]

I personally feel if you are friends enough with your Boss to invite him to a game, then you are friends enough with him to sit down and have an adult, calm conversation about what went on.

You need to explain to him how important your reputation and integrity are to you. You then need to explain exactly what happened that night and why. You need to let him in on your line of thinking so he can see why you and your friend didn't play many pots against one another and why you split the tourney 50-50.

I would definitely go so far as to give him some basic TAG strategies so he can try to understand it better.

I know some people in this situation would try to explain what collusion really is and what it looks like. I would NOT do this, as it will do nothing but look.....bad.

[Lottery Larry]

"I know some people in this situation would try to explain what collusion really is and what it looks like. I would NOT do this, as it will do nothing but look.....bad. "

Agreed. It will come across as defensive.

I am the boss (not from this example) and host many home games where some of my subordinates come and play. (I am not often the biggest winner of the night) Granted, we all know poker fairly well. In my job integrity is also #1 priority. However, if I ever thought for a second that one of my employees was cheating, I would just ask them. I know most of them well enough that if they said no; it would be the truth, they would come clean, or I would be able to tell if they were lying. If they admitted cheating in any way or lied about it, they would not EVER be welcome back, and they would have to live with the un-spoken of shame every day at work. I would not let that incident affect their employment as they are all very good at what they do. In the case of someone I suspected as being a liar, I would watch them at work to be sure their lack of integrity issues remained outside the workplace and they would absolutely be aware that I was watching.

[List]

Buy him a copy of SSH. That should explain pretty clearly to him why he's a losing player. Never play with him again.

[maryfield48]

[ QUOTE ]
Buy him a copy of SSH. That should explain pretty clearly to him why he's a losing player. Never play with him again.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're a Mason Malmuth gimmick account, aren't you?