Good vs Bad In Multi Way Pots (Starting Hands)

[directscooter]

First off, I want to apologize because I am sure this question has been asked a million times before. I actually remember seeing a post about it somewhere either on this board or else where, but I could not find using the search function. (should have just added it to my favorites but at the time I don't think I understood it)
A lot of times you hear people talking about how certain hands play well in multi way pots while others do not. I understand why (to a certain extent) but like I said I remember someone either posting about it or linking to something else a while back that really explained which starting hands should be played only heads up and which ones can stand more people in the pot.
Basically as I try to improve my game and get more agressive preflop, I want to make sure I am raising/limping with the right hands, and that I am continuation betting with the correct ones as well.

[the 9]

Not sure why no-one has replied to this, seems like a fairly reasonable post, so I'll throw in my 2c. (If it has been discussed on this forum before, then my apologies but I haven't seen it)

First off I'd say it depends on the stakes you're playing.
If it's micro or smaller stakes like .25/.50 then I suspect you're going to be seeing a lot more muti-way pots than at 1/2 or 2/4.

I've always found the best strategy at .25/.50 was to be very aggressive on loose tables, basically raising all decent pairs and AK/AQ to 4 or 5BB pf and potting most flops, providing I had only 1 or 2 callers. If it was obvious that these raises were being called by 4/5/6 people in any position, then I simply raise more.
This type of table allows me to limp (or get very good pf odds calling raises) on my second string hand like ATs, midpairs for a set, just looking for a big flop.
Axs is a very good multiway hand playing for the flush (or at least 2 suits on an unpaired flop) but it is not so good vs 1 or 2 opponents for a raise, as you're more likely to be up against a bigger ace.

It has always been my experience that it's best for big hands to play against fewer opponents and stack the second best hands like AJo, 99 etc - despite many posts on 2+2 saying you want lots of people in the pot when you have AA.

At stakes like 1/2 and 2/4, position becomes a lot more important and you can be limping multiway with all sorts of hands and raising all sorts of hands to be heads up with specific players you have a read on. The cards become less important as less hands go to showdown. If it's these stakes you're talking about that would need a bit more in depth discussion to be useful to you.

Those are just my intial ramblings, feel free to agree/flame [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[gulebjorn]

In multiway pots, you want to play hands that don't win unimproved, but have the potential to flop monster hands.

This means suited connectors, suited aces and small pairs. Depending on position, opponents and how good your postflop play is, you could add suited kings, suited one through three-gappers, non-suited connectors etc.

You want to see a lot of cheaps flops with these hands, because you will not often hit them. But when you do, someone will usually pay you. If there are a lot of players in the pot, it becomes more likely that someone hits a hand they wanna call you down with, like TPTK or two pair.

Heads-up, you want to play hands that are valuable right away. This means pairs: the bigger, the better and of course all high cards.

There are a few reasons for this:

Heads-up, there is usually more pressure sooner in the hand. In 6-way pots, it's hard to bluff. Heads-up, agression always wins the money. Drawing hands cannot take this kind of pressure.

In multiway pots, you probably aren't the only one holding an ace. And if you only have a 6-kicker to go along with it, you are risking a lot of money because you will get outkicked a lot. You want to avoid being dominated. Think of it like this: you are better off entering a pot with 72o than with AJo if someone behind you is holding AK. 72 has a 32% chance of winning, AJ has 24%. There is no worse situation than domination. Heads-up, any ace is likely to be the best hand.

Pot odds. Multiway pots will give you much better pot odds, for obvious reasons. This means that you will have odds to draw to your flush or straight after the flop.

Hand value. Even if you do not hit your hand, a pair or a high card could win you pots when it's heads-up. In multiway pots, you're not looking to take down pots unimproved.

The kind of hand that is needed to win a pot. In multiway pots, the average winner is probably something like two pair or better. This means that you want to start out with hands that have good potential of improving beyond two pair.

For example: AA is a great starting hand, but you do not want to play it multiway. In order to protect your hand, you would have to bet huge amounts into the pot, but that's exactly what you don't want to do, because you're giving your opponents huge implied odds. You would be begging them to trap you and take your money.

76s is also a great starting hand, but I wanna play this hand against as many opponents as possible. You are looking to hit a straight or a flush with this hand. If you hit, you will usually make a lot of money off the guy holding AA who didn't raise enough preflop.

The only hands that fall into both categories, are the pocket pairs. But not for the same reason. Multiway, you want to hit your set on the flop, or get out. Heads-up, it is very likely that you are holding the best hand preflop, and even if you don't improve on the flop, chances are that your opponent didn't pair his hand, so you still have the best hand.

That's pretty much all I can think of right now. Hope this is what you were looking for. Any discussion on any of the topics I talked about is welcome.

[directscooter]

Thank you for the reply, I am assuming that alot of this stuff is just second nature to many of the players and that is why the post is not interesting to them. I remember when I had initally read the post from a while back, I had no idea on some of the things the poster was talking about and just wanted to see if I would understand it/make better use of it now.
I agree with you on a lot of your post, although I do not think I have heard many 2+2 ers say that they want to play AA with a lot of others in the hand. The post had a lot of explanation on how hands go up and down in value based on the number of people seeing the flop etc. If I find it I will re post it.

[gulebjorn]

[ QUOTE ]
despite many posts on 2+2 saying you want lots of people in the pot when you have AA.

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I don't ever see anyone saying this in here. And I'm sure that if they would risk it, they would instantly be shot through the knees by a small stakes footsoldier.

[directscooter]

This is an excellent post, thank you.
Like I said in the other post, I think a lot of this stuff is just done by reflex, but sitting back and thinking about it can keep you from getting into trouble. Especially dumping a 76s when you don't get at least 2 pair or 4 to the draw, etc.

[punter11235]

My view is that you want as many opponents as possible with AK,AQ,KQ, suited connectors, smallpairs and only 1 or 2 with AA-JJ.

[UOPokerPlayer]

This is not an easy question, it has a lot to do with the table. At a tight table, open-limping sucks if you can just pick up the blinds, and at an aggressive table it sucks too, because you're gonna get pushed out of pots. Loose-passive are my favorite table (aside from the open-pushing crazy games that come along once in a great while.) Most of my multi-way hands come from limping behind, calling mini-raises, and calling normal raises if a bunch of people called already (3). Here's my range of hands i want multiway.

22-77
Axs
Kxs
SC's 56s-KQs
OSC's J10o-KQo
Suited One Gapper's 810s-JKs
Unsuited One Gapper's Q10o, JKo

I want multiway with all those hands, middle pairs are a whole conundrum in themselves. QQ-AA I'll raise limpers and reraise after raises and calls, and I will usually do the same with JJ (75% of the time), so my real issue is with 88-1010. It comes down to reads there, whether or not to raise and try to take the pot right there, knowing i have value of hitting a set/overpair. Obviously, I'll be more willing to make the raise with 1010, than 88.

The other hands that I haven't mentioned yet are AKs, AKo, AQs and AQo. These are hands that I don't really want multi-way, especially not the offsuit ones. I'll take two different lines with them, one being a passive one to just play for two pair or better, and if I make top pair, only bet when action tells me I'm probably good. Or take the aggressive route and stick in a big bet preflop and a pot-sized continuation. If I'm still playing after that aggression, I'm shutting down unless I made something. To know which route to take you need to find out which of these is more likely -

1. My aggression wins the pot.
2. I stack someones AJ when the flop comes AQx, AKx

If you're more likely to have a worse hand look you up because of your pf call, then go passive. If you're going to take it down most of the time with your raise and flop bet, then go aggro. Remember that stacking someone is worth a lot more than picking up $6-10 pf pot, but flopping a hand good enough to warrant putting all your chips in is quite rare.

These same ideas used for AK-AQ can be applied to the 88-1010 hands.

[gulebjorn]

[ QUOTE ]
My view is that you want as many opponents as possible with AK,AQ,KQ.

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My view is that you are wasting EV on these hands.

[UOPokerPlayer]

I'm on your team.