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#53
08-02-2005, 05:20 PM
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Re: Hmmm JTs UTG raise hand
[ QUOTE ]
I would 3bet the flop, bet the turn, and go from there. If he has a heart you gotta charge the MFER. [/ QUOTE ] I remember reading a post by Ed Miller on how charging flush draws is incorrect. I don't believe this applies here because we don't know for sure if villain is on a flush draw, but would Miller's claim apply in any HU situations? I guess most of the time it won't since HU it's harder to pin a player's holdings to just a flush draw, and you have to charge his other draws. 
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#54
08-02-2005, 05:27 PM
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Re: Hmmm JTs UTG raise hand
I think Ed's post was about multiway pots, and that it's bogus that you're charging the draw when the draw is actually making money (flushdraw against 2+ opponents).
You may raise a draw though, even with 2+ opponents in the pot, but you're raising for value or to drive the other players out (the flushdraw isn't going anywhere). If it is heads up, "charging the flushdraw" wouldn't be that bogus, because he's losing money for every bet that goes in. But you're right that its harder to pin someones holding to a flushdraw when it's heads up. If your only opponent would play every hand, the probability that he actually has a flushdraw when the flop has two of a suit is about 5%... Btw, your other post rocked! And good luck with starting over!
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#55
08-02-2005, 05:33 PM
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Re: Hmmm JTs UTG raise hand
III geeeettt it. If you KNEW your opponent was on a flush draw (for one more card) in a multiway pot, he/she's not going anywhere and the more money you put in the more it benefits them since they have significant pot edge (or is it equity edge??).
However HU they don't have the equity edge or pot edge or whatever its called (please correct me), so it IS correct to charge them. Thanks.
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#56
08-02-2005, 05:49 PM
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Re: Hmmm JTs UTG raise hand
I think it's more about wether or not you can call it "charging", actually. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] (eds post that is).
Even though the flushdraw is making money in a multiway pot, you can still be correct to value bet because your probability of winning (ie pot equity) is larger than his. Say you have TPTK, one opponent has a nut flushdraw and someone else has a middle pair, random kicker. You bet, middle pair guy calls, flushdraw raises. If you reraise and middle pair guy calls, you're making the most money (because your hand is the favourite to win), but the flushdraw is still making some money. To be precise, he's 1.86:1 (I think) to complete his draw by the river. But when middle pair guy calls his raise and your reraise, he's getting 2:1 on the new money entering the pot, which is more than his 1.86:1 to make his hand by the river. HU OTOH, it's even more correct to charge them! You are then making money from the flushdraw on the new money coming into the pot also! He's getting 1:1 on the new money entering, but he needs at least 1.86:1 to gain from it. So it's even correct to call it "charge" [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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#57
08-03-2005, 12:00 AM
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My thoughts and ressults (long)
Sorry that I have taken so long to reply. I see that it has been a good topic to discuss and I find this hand very interesting as well. Here are my thoughts....
Flop call: When the villian raises, I have no idea if he is a good player or not. If he is a bad player, I am probably beat at this point. If he is a good player, he might be on [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]'s or middle pair (or nothing) if he is floating or a bigger jack so again it makes sense to just call here. If I had AJ I would obviously make it 3-bets since I have to think my hand is best no matter who my opponent is. Turn: A good player should be able to put me on trips here. Of course I won't always have trips, but I would never bet out again with something like AA or KK. If I happen to have AA in this spot, I should check/call since I'm either drawing to 2 outs or I most likely have my villian drawing to 2 outs. Of course I can also have a hand like TT here or even AK [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] so it isn't like I will always have a boss hand here. The problem with checking IMO is that I need to check/call to prevent blowing the opponent off a hand that is drawing dead. The danger of checking is that the villian checks behind when he is drawing to a straight, flush or something else in this big pot. Also (edit): When the next jack comes it is far less likely that the villian has one (more merit to him raising with a hand that wants a free card). I am of course betting to get 3-bets in if he does want to raise me. The fact that a good player might raise me again with AQ [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] means [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] for me (again recall the last hand I posted). Final: The villian was a 2+2er and 3-bet me on the river. I called (this was a mistake) and he showed me J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] for the stone nuts. I feel like up until I called the 3-bet this hand was played perfectly postflop by both of us (but it was VERY tough to put him on a hand here no matter what type of player he is). Notice how he just called with trips on the turn (remember that last hand I posted?) to keep me from folding something like TT or AA. Remember that he didn't know who I was, so he had to assume that I could be betting a hand that was in a WA/WB spot. I obviously check (intention of raising) on the river to see if he will bluff a busted [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] draw since that is a possible hand. He probably doesn't have middle pair after he calls turn since he is drawing thin/dead against my range of hands. He might raise the turn to get me to fold something better then mid-pair, but he probably isn't calling there with a hand that will payoff on a river "blank". Brad
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#59
08-03-2005, 01:42 AM
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Re: My thoughts and ressults (long)
[ QUOTE ]
A good player should be able to put me on trips here. [/ QUOTE ] This is the only thing I disagree with slightly, and that's because I think only a great player will see you are trying to bet/ 3 bet, a good player will put you on some hand that doesn't want the turn to get checked through. He played his hand really well, except of course the preflop but its 4/8. -DeathDonkey
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