Folding aces, preflop, in a cash game

[RoundTower]

I was sure this question would have been done to death, but I couldn't find anything on it. I saw a similar situation to this several days ago.

In a no-limit hold'em cash game, you have A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in the big blind. One or more players go all in before you, and the rest fold. Before you can call, the all in players all flip over their cards.

You are concerned only about maximizing your EV from this hand. In what circumstances should you fold here?

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
You are concerned only about maximizing your EV from this hand. In what circumstances should you fold here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Almost none. If someone else has AA (or in some cases, a single A) AND you're up against a large number of pocket pairs (that don't share cards), you might want to fold, since it's going to be hard to improve and with enough other pairs out there someone is very likely to make trips.

[tshak]

Out of curiosity, could you please elaborate on the scenario which has lead you to ask this question? I personally have never seen this debated for a ring game before.

[PokrLikeItsProse]

You would have the worst of it if one player had red aces, and five other players were also all-in with a pocket pair, both black.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=92085
pokenum -h ac as - ad ah - kc ks - qc qs - jc js - tc ts - 9c 9s
Holdem Hi: 501942 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Ac 2140 0.43 406070 80.90 93732 18.67 0.096
Ad Ah 19578 3.90 388632 77.43 93732 18.67 0.131
Ks Kc 110222 21.96 389782 77.65 1938 0.39 0.220
Qs Qc 89140 17.76 410864 81.85 1938 0.39 0.178
Js Jc 72342 14.41 427662 85.20 1938 0.39 0.145
Ts Tc 60192 11.99 439812 87.62 1938 0.39 0.120
9s 9c 54596 10.88 445408 88.74 1938 0.39 0.109

Change the kings to deuces and black aces still have the worst hand.

[callmedonnie]

when do they all flip over their cards before you make your move? we getting hypothetical I assume.

[RoundTower]

[ QUOTE ]
Out of curiosity, could you please elaborate on the scenario which has lead you to ask this question? I personally have never seen this debated for a ring game before.

[/ QUOTE ]

One player went all in with 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], and another with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. The 88 didn't realise there was still a player to act, and exposed his hand.

Of course the big blind, with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] called anyway. But I was thinking: If the 88 had had a very small stack, and the two other players each had very large stacks, then the big blind is correct to fold.

It happened in a tournament situation, so of course the stacks were nowhere near big enough to justify this. But I still thought it was interesting, and hypothetically, something similar could happen in a ring game.

[R_Ellender]

If there's only two opponents, I probably don't fold for any reason, unless one of them also has AA and there's not enough money in the pot to justify calling for a probable split.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
But I was thinking: If the 88 had had a very small stack, and the two other players each had very large stacks, then the big blind is correct to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
In general, I think it is a bad idea to look for a place to fold aces preflop. In the vast majority of situations people consider it, folding is wrong by a lot.

Here, you have correctly identified a time you might want to fold aces. What stack sizes would it take?. Calling would give the player with black aces 38.5% of the main pot ( http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1079557 ), but only 49.6% of the side pot ( http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1079560 ). Every dollar going into the main pot returns $1.15. Every dollar going into the side pot returns $0.992. So, the smaller large stack would have to be about 1+(.15/.008) ~ 20 times as large as the short stack to make it right to fold with no blinds or rake.

The rake, blinds, and rules about splitting the odd chips have a large effect on the maximum you can call. Getting a discount of 1 BB means it would be right to risk an extra 125 BB (returning 124 BB). Adding an extra 1/2 BB of dead money in the main pot would be like getting a discount of 1/2 * 0.385 BB, so it would be right to call an extra 24 BB. The rake would decrease the biggest correct call, and this may make it right to fold the aces in some cash games with blinds that are much smaller than the maximum rake. You may want to be even more conservative if you are risk-averse, but this doesn't have a large effect since the variance of the side pot is very low.

[tshak]

The only way you can fold AA is if you knew for certain that these were the hands you were up against (i.e. they were accidentally flipped up before you made your move). But since this never really happens we don't have to worry about it. Even with 5 people allin the odds that someone has AK, or that two people are sharing any of the pairs are very high, and in these cases you have huge +EV. It should also be noted that if you simply remove one less pair from this example (4 paird up allins with one having AA and the rest sharing your suits) that you're still +EV.

You can not correclty fold AA preflop in a ring game in any realistic scenario.

[pokerguard]

Hey, I know that play. Happend at a table that I was at during a tournament July 5th, in Phoenix (Gila River Casino, to be exact).

The dude with the 88 got his third 8...

Are we talking the same tourney?