15/30 - I was questioned about my play (long)

[any2cards]

While I was waiting for a seat in a 30/60 holdem game, I was watching a very interesting 15/30 super loose, super agressive game. After watching for about 30 minutes, and noticing that of the 9 players in the game, only one appeared to be a solid player, I placed my name on the list. I was seated into the game 10 minutes later.

After playing for 35 minutes, the following hand occurred. I was in the small blind, the solid player (SP) was UTG+1, and a very agressive maniac (VAM) was the button.

UTG and SP limped. I had watched SP play, and he had a tendency to limp in this position with a range of hands from AQ-AK, and small pairs less than 8's. The next player folded, a MP player raised, and it was folded to the VAM. He 3-bet. I had absolutely no respect for VAM's 3-bet after having watched him play for an hour or so. In addition, his 3-bet left him with only 2.5 big bets left.

I looked at my hand and found the A [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] . Ordinarily, I would toss this hand away. Given the makeup of the game, and disrespecting one of the raises, I decided to call. The big blind called, the two limpers called, and then MP 4-bet, and VAM capped it. I was not very happy, because even if we ignored VAM, I began to wonder what UTG and UTG+1 had limped with, not to mention what MP had originally raised, and 4-bet with. I figured my hand to be a large underdog. At this point, I had to call two additional bets, with the knowledge that the maniac had only 1 large bet left. I, and everyone else, called the additional 2 bets. There is now 15 big bets in the pot.

Question #1: Would you have played the hand pre-flop?

The flop was K [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] . I checked, the big blind checked, UTG bet, SP raised, MP raised, VAM went all in, and the action was to me. I figured that at this point, with the money in the pot, no one was going anywhere, and there was no point at any attempt for a free card. In addition, I felt that I had only 9 outs to possibly win this hand. I, and everyone else, called. There are now 24 big bets in the pot.

Question #2: Would you have raised the flop?

The turn was the 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] . The board now consisted of K [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] . I checked, the big blind checked, UTG bet, SP called, MP raised, I 3-bet, the big blind folded (!!!), UTG 4-bet, SP called three more cold, and MP capped the betting. I now sat back to think. Given the way SP had played, I figured for him to keep playing this hand, he had to have a set. I also realized that UTG may have slowed played a big hand pre-flop (KK?). I knew that I had the current nuts, but if the board paired, I would be in trouble. Everyone called the remaining bets. The side pot has 20 big bets in addition to the main pot of 24 big bets.

Question #3: Would you have 3-bet at this point? Do you wait to make sure the river doesn't pair the board? I wasn't sure what MP may have had, but guessed something like KQ or QJ of hearts. I do not believe he would have pushed AA (without the A of hearts).

The river was the 6 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] . The board now consisted of
K [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] . I bet, and every player called (!!!).

I obviously won the pot, and no one else showed their hands. Later on, the SP spoke with me about the hand and told me that he had a set of 5's.

Question #4: Would you have bet out?

Question #5: What could the rest of the players had, that allowed them to play the way they did through the entire hand, and then have everyone call at the river? I figure that even loose players can't make a call when they are essentially over calling for the 3rd or 4th time?! [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

The reason that I asked the above questions is because, due to the nature of this table, and the size of the pot, there were many regulars watching the game and drooling. Several very good players (all of whom I have played many hours with at 30/60) spoke with me about the hand after it was all over. They did not like (1) my call pre-flop, (2) my raise on the turn, and (3) they did not like that I bet out the river (they felt that if I checked the river, it would have been bet and raised for me).

I appreciate any and all feedback and comments. Thank you.

[David Ottosen]

Question 1: In a maniac game, suited aces and pocket pairs are about all I play. So yes. Your friends want you to wait for AKo to flop a pair? They're going to be the ones steaming away from the table angrily claiming "how can I win when nobody folds". In this game, you have to make a nut hand. Nut flush draws are the easiest nut hand to make. If the game is as you describe it, you should have no trouble making suited aces end up being a +EV call.

Question 2: I would have kept putting in chips until the dealer told me to stop. This begins with betting out, and it ends with capping. Given (at least) three live players who don't seem to be going anywhere, your raise is not for a free card. It is for value, and what's more, you are hoping everyone calls. If you aren't going to raise here, then I take back what I said about this hand being +EV.

Question 3: Are you serious. If you even consider not capping at this point, why are you playing poker? Believe me, in a maniac game like this, 50 hands from now when YOU have the set and the maniac has the flush, he's going to cap it on you. And guess what, you just got outplayed by a maniac, since in the same situation, he made more when ahead and lost less when behind. Again, if you aren't going to raise here, I take back what I said about this hand being +EV.

Question 4: Your regular friends are wrong. Why do they assume that 1) you bet and everyone called, but 2) if someone else had bet, everyone would have been raising? I would have bet and expected to be raised and have the delicious sensation of reraising with the nuts on the river. If you had checked and it got checked around, the armchair quarterbacks would have been saying "how could you not bet? They probably would have raised and reraised you!"

Question 5: They are obviously not players looking to play with any sense of seriousness, so I put them all on random one pair or less hands.

You played perfectly. I don't think another player in the world could have played it better. Maniac games are to be treated with the brute force of the bet, rather than the delicate scalpel of deception.

[Ulysses]

1) I don't like your pre-flop call either. Especially because when you make the call, it might end up something like capped 4-way action. I think it's an easy fold.

2) With 6-way action (I guess 5 way w/ the all-in), yeah, I raise the flop. Not to get a free card, but to build the pot. I think you only have 8 outs (I don't like K[img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] ), but that's enough.

3) Unless you're 100% positive someone else is going to 3-bet it for you, the turn raise is a must. You paid heavily pre-flop to get here. You have to maximize your win now - waiting to see a safe card on the river will cripple your pot. Maybe BB gets stuck in the pot if you just call, but I don't think you can risk that - you have to 3 bet.

4) I probably bet out. The problem with a checkraise is that everyone might check to MP based on his turn aggression. If he checks, this is terrible. If he bets and you raise, you might only collect the two bets from him. Because of that, I probably bet and hope someone raises me.

5) K[img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] , KK, and TT seem like reasonable holdings given the betting so far. Given your description of the field, AK, KT, smaller hearts or even weaker holdings may also be out there.

[astroglide]

"I had watched SP play, and he had a tendency to limp in this position with a range of hands from AQ-AK, and small pairs less than 8's"

so SOLID players can be put on a small, specific range of hands preflop? :/

[mikelow]

The answers to your questions:

#1. Normally I would fold to a three-bet in the BB with your hand. But this game is so juicy, you are getting good odds on Ax suited. So your call preflop was OK.

#2. Your call is reasonable, but maybe a raise gets even more money to win in case your draw hits. But there could be a cap by the time it gets back to you. This draw is getting expensive, but you are drawing to the nuts. One problem with a raise on the flop is you may drive a hand like J9 out.

#3. If you don't three-bet the turn, you merely complete the action. You drove someone out of the pot, but got more bets from the others who raised it up. I like the three-bet.

#4. It's close, but is anyone going to bet for you to checkraise? Maybe if you check, the player with the set might bet, since you might not have the flush. I would bet at the table and collect calls from everyone.

#5. Play against them more often! Who cares what they had!
If they're in there with stuff like two pair, top pair, small straights, sit down and get the chips.

BTW, where was this played?

[any2cards]

This hand occurred at Canterbury Park in Minnesota.

[any2cards]

As for Question #3, my thinking about raising/capping versus simply smooth calling was as follows: I was trying to determine what was likely to get the most amount of money into the pot at this point in the hand, while losing the least amount of players. I was concerned that if I raised, the obvious first thought to any potential set out there was that I had made my flush; given that, I would have expected nothing more than a smooth call from others to see what the river might bring. In addition, I didn't actually want to lose anyone here.

In fact, if I had smooth called, I wonder what the likely hood would have been of the big blind calling, and the pot being capped behind. This would also serve to hide the strength of my hand and potentially gain more bets on the river.

[any2cards]

I apologize if I gave that impression. What I meant to get across was that during the time that I had observed the game, SP tended to limp in EP with the hands specified, rather than raising. His only EP raised hands had consisted of QQ and TT.

[pudley4]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
After watching for about 30 minutes, and noticing that of the 9 players in the game, only one appeared to be a solid player

[/ QUOTE ]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
This hand occurred at Canterbury Park in Minnesota

[/ QUOTE ]

I can believe it [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

The second hand I ever saw there at 15-30, UTG and BB capped it preflop with K [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] and J [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] , respectively. They then capped the Q [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] flop (with 2 callers, one of whom had J9o [img]/forums/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] ). Turn was T [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] , UTG folded to BB's bet - he must have been the 1 good player that night [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

To answer your questions, I too would have considered calling on the turn. It seems very likely this will end up capped anyway, and your check-raise 3-bet on the turn screams nut flush. Smooth-calling will allow you to get a check-raise in on the river (assuming a 4th heart doesn't come).

[mikelow]

Maybe I should go on a "Poker Across America" tour. [img]/forums/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]