22 - QQ overpair wuss fold

[ilya]

What are you worried about? JJ and a 6 almost certainly flat-call to the preflop raiser....I am pretty happy to get all my chips in here.

[mlagoo]

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Where did I say my line is right?

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well if you didnt think it was right, it would seem pretty silly for you to persist in the taking of it and the belief that it wasnt costing you money =/ but whatever.

i think minraises in the 22s can mean any number of things in the 22s, and until proven otherwise, i assume they mean that either

a) they THINK they are very strong, which may or may not mean they actually are very strong;

b) they are trying to "find out where they are" for cheap; or

c) they are a donk that thinks a minraise bluff is effective (which it apparently is, at least potentially).

also, raising more preflop doesnt announce your hand, because you (should) make the same raise with every hand in your raising range at this level. it's a good way to build a pot when donks will happily call the extra 30 chips with AJ, QJ, KT, and all kinds of silly hands.

[jeffraider]

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I'd raise a little more preflop, to maybe 90 or 100 or so, and I'd push this flop I think. Sometimes you go broke but I think you're ahead most of the time.

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I don't like to make the "hey I have AA-QQ"-raises preflop in level 1-2. I don't want to be too obvious and I don't find it all that hard getting all the money in when I want to postflop anyway.

As for the flop, I respect flop minraises more than most posters here. I don't think it has hurt my results doing so.

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That's cool it's not like either of our lines are terrible.

[Freudian]

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i disagree that making a larger raise makes it obvious that you have qq-aa. in fact, it often may appear that your hand is more vulnerable if you raise more, no?

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I think the weaker players at this limit don't care or notice. They play their hand if they want to play their hand, no matter if I raise 5xBB or 8xBB here.

But you also have a pretty large group of decent and good players. And the larger raise tells them exactly what you have in my experience. So raising less invites them to call with hands I most often dominate. The drawback is of course that sometimes you get outflopped and you stand to lose all your chips when you have overpair.

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as for the bet and min raise on the J66 flop you can only be worried about JJ and x6.

does jj or x6 bet into a preflop raiser? probably not. most likely they slowplay.

does jj or x6 min raise that flop? not likely. x6 wouldnt have any draws to fear except maybe a jack.

youre most certainly good here, probably up against 77-tt and qj-aj (by first to act and min raiser, respectively) i would suspect.

im pushing.

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It makes sense that someone playing x6 would slowplay it. But I often see these milking flop minraises with the nuts or the near nuts and have been burned by it time and time again. Perhaps my sample size is so tilted that I am playing this incorrectly. I think I have to start writing down what minraisers have from now on to see if my interpretation of them is warped.

If the flop was J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] I would instapush since there was another thing the minraise could mean.

[DDH]

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I don't like to make the "hey I have AA-QQ"-raises preflop in level 1-2.

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And at the 22s I have seen people make that raise with AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, JJ, 1010, 99, and call the same raise with such. I'd make a larger raise, especially with a couple of limpers and on the button. Then yeah, push the flop.

[Freudian]

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well if you didnt think it was right, it would seem pretty silly for you to persist in the taking of it and the belief that it wasnt costing you money =/ but whatever.

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I said it hadn't cost me money. It is possible that if I do it 1000 times it will cost me money. My line is based on my experience in the past. If the majority has a different experience, it would make sense to draw the conclusion that my results are not representative and I am making the wrong play.

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i think minraises in the 22s can mean any number of things in the 22s, and until proven otherwise, i assume they mean that either

a) they THINK they are very strong, which may or may not mean they actually are very strong;

b) they are trying to "find out where they are" for cheap; or

c) they are a donk that thinks a minraise bluff is effective (which it apparently is, at least potentially).

also, raising more preflop doesnt announce your hand, because you (should) make the same raise with every hand in your raising range at this level. it's a good way to build a pot when donks will happily call the extra 30 chips with AJ, QJ, KT, and all kinds of silly hands.

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I agree that all these three are reasonable explanations for a minraise. Another is that they want to build a pot without scaring people off.

I think many low limit 2+2ers have different raise amounts for AA-QQ and the other hands they want to raise with at these limits. The conventional wisdom has been to raise extra with your monsters because the donks at the 11s and 22s will call anyway.

[bjb23]

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I think the weaker players at this limit don't care or notice. They play their hand if they want to play their hand, no matter if I raise 5xBB or 8xBB here.


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nice, i want to get a lot of chips in pf against weak players with marginal holdings.

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But you also have a pretty large group of decent and good players. And the larger raise tells them exactly what you have in my experience. So raising less invites them to call with hands I most often dominate.

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meh. i think good players are playing mostly strong hands at this point anyway. MAYBE a "good" player will call your raise with AQ jj-99 (the range of hands which you dominate) but they are probably proceeding cautiously unless they hit a set or outflop you (eg. hit an ace with AQ).

honestly, the raise is not hugely important. just a minor detail. sometimes my read will be that a larger raise means weakness and sometimes i read it as strength so i guess it can go either way really.

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It makes sense that someone playing x6 would slowplay it. But I often see these milking flop minraises with the nuts or the near nuts and have been burned by it time and time again. Perhaps my sample size is so tilted that I am playing this incorrectly. I think I have to start writing down what minraisers have from now on to see if my interpretation of them is warped.

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yeah i think youre seeing monsters under the bed here. most times a 22er will honestly believe that AJ is by far the best hand on an j66 flop and in their minds "milking" the hand for value.

i agree that minraises in some spots are really troubling. but here, all the action on the flop screams relative weakness/pseudo-strength(ie. the better thinks he is stronger than he actually is)

[Freudian]

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meh. i think good players are playing mostly strong hands at this point anyway. MAYBE a "good" player will call your raise with AQ jj-99 (the range of hands which you dominate) but they are probably proceeding cautiously unless they hit a set or outflop you (eg. hit an ace with AQ).

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When I have AA/KK there are more hands I don't mind calling.

I often fold AK/JJ/TT/AQs to big raises from solid players in level 1-2, where I would call if they raised smaller.

Do most 2+2ers at the 11s-22s have a standard raise in level 1-2 or do they have different raises for monsters and normal raise hands? Would be interesting (and helpful) to find out.