Folding to a higher flush

benkahuna · #1 10-28-2005, 11:58 PM

I was wondering if some people out there could give some practical guidelines to make the most +EV decision to fold a made flush.

I'm assuming a 3 flush board and the non nut flush and a non-paired board. Also not a 4 to a straight flush board.
I'm aware that the chance of being up against a better flush is something like 6:1 and that as a general rule you do NOT fold your made flush.
I'm not talking about limit. In limit, I'd assume you pretty much have to call with the guidelines I've mentioned here.

I've come across this situation twice in live no limit ring games. I play something like a suited connector in a multiway pot in a soft game with lots of people limping in preflop.
The flop comes 3 to a flush in my suit, giving me the made flush.

One time, I bet first, got raised and all in reraised the guy that was capable of a big laydown that knew me to be a tight player that rarely bluffed.

The other time, I faced a small bet and was last to act and all in reraised (stupidly, I think now as it was a deep stack situation). The pot was maybe 15 at the time. I faced a 10 dollar or so bet and had about 200 behind (buy in 100) from a player with around 100. I all in reraised. The player I faced would call all in w/ top pair in a deep stack situation.

I'm seeking to avoid these situations (they are rare) and think that maybe at some times I should fold when I believe it likely I have a smaller flush. I had a feeling both times that I describe above that someone had a bigger flush.

So, what do you all think?

Should you ever fold a made flush in a ring game on a 3 flush board? If so, under what conditions?

How do deep stack situations affect this decision? Any good book advice on this particular issue? The main one I recall suggests not ever laying it down with a 3 flush board, but almost every book is about limit hold em...

So far, I've only come across this situation very few times and I was always the aggressor, all in reraising others and getting cold slowly by better players and quickly by looser players.

Pog0 · #2 10-29-2005, 12:27 AM

From what you said in situation 2, if the guy will call an all in with a deep stack with top pair and you have a made flush, you made the correct decision going all in. Don't let the results sway you here.

Xhad · #3 10-29-2005, 12:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The other time, I faced a small bet and was last to act and all in reraised (stupidly, I think now as it was a deep stack situation). The pot was maybe 15 at the time. I faced a 10 dollar or so bet and had about 200 behind (buy in 100) from a player with around 100. I all in reraised. The player I faced would call all in w/ top pair in a deep stack situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is similar to having ATo, flopping one pair and facing a lot of action; playing this way is suicidal against good players but good against bad players. If your opponent would call that overbet with top pair then go ahead and bet.

#4 10-29-2005, 12:41 AM

I see this a lot in NL ring games and I can't help but be amazed at the number of players that are willing to risk their whole stack with such a large overbet on a non nut flush. The pot is $25 (after his $10 bet). You know he only has $100 left so why not just raise to $50 and see what he decides to do? You know that you'll call him if he re-raises all in (another $50 raise for him) due to your pot odds and your made flush but this way you put some pressure on him. Maybe he calls the raise if he has a pair or 2pair but he wouldn't have if you had gone all in? Maybe he made the higher flush and you lose? You need to play the other player rather than just play the math.

benkahuna · #5 10-29-2005, 01:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
From what you said in situation 2, if the guy will call an all in with a deep stack with top pair and you have a made flush, you made the correct decision going all in. Don't let the results sway you here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I agree. I'm not really so concerned about this situation or the results, more that I've never laid down a flush on a 3 flush board and thinking there may be situations in which I should.

#6 11-04-2005, 01:26 PM

If I'm only against 1 other player there's practically no way I lay down a made flush. Now if I'm against 2 players I ponder it, and more than that I probably lay it down.