Ed Miller fans Please Help!

[Idaho Ave]

Thanks in advance to all who read this and provide a well thought through response. I am a huge Ed Miller SSHE fan and have been studying his preflop guidelines. I believe my understanding of this material is on the rise, however I have been unable to figure out how to plug a leak of mine, and have actually given up the life of the low limit grinder, and moved to sit n go simply to avoid the grind and the frusteration.

My leak/question/problem is this. When I have limped in early/middle position with hands that should not be played against a raise, and it gets raised after I have already put in one bet leaving me with one bet to call, what thought process do I use to be selective with my call/fold options?

I typically call then call a flop bet due to the odds, then get faced with calling a turn bet, meaning I get at least 1.5 big bets in the pot, sometimes 2.5 with a hand that is only a limping hand, its killing me.

ED Miller SSHE has big blind guidlines. Is it the same as if you limped from early position, are these guidlines applicable for an ealry position limper?
And will you honeslty fold AJ off for one bet after you've limped, on the basis that it is a "weak off suit holding"?

Please speculate.
Thank You
Idaho

[Octopus]

[ QUOTE ]
My leak/question/problem is this. When I have limped in early/middle position with hands that should not be played against a raise, and it gets raised after I have already put in one bet leaving me with one bet to call, what thought process do I use to be selective with my call/fold options?

[/ QUOTE ]

Always call for one more bet and you will make VERY few mistakes.

[DMBFan23]

folding preflop for one bet after having put money in the pot is typically a very bad idea. if it was good enough the first time, it will be good enough the second time around

- you are getting the same pot odds and better implied odds, but that is counterbalanced by the fact that your hand is now more likely to be up against a better hand...neverthelss, calling the second bet is pretty much always correct.

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
I typically call then call a flop bet due to the odds, then get faced with calling a turn bet, meaning I get at least 1.5 big bets in the pot, sometimes 2.5 with a hand that is only a limping hand, its killing me.

ED Miller SSHE has big blind guidlines. Is it the same as if you limped from early position, are these guidlines applicable for an ealry position limper?

[/ QUOTE ]

if for some reason you misclicked and accidentally called with 74o, and it gets raised, you should then fold. but when you correctly limp, you should call one back.

as for the postflop questions, you should post hands [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[GatorXP]

My stance is this Play your early posistion hands tightly and by the book, If you get raised so be it. YOu put money in the pot under the assumption you may get raised...what the likely hood is depends on the table of coarse, Ive sat at some where I could loosen up in early because I knew i wouldnt get raised and others its almost a lock that you will. That said you have committed yourself to the pot for the 1 extra bet. It may be a different story depending on your holding and who the raisers are if it is 2 or more bets back to you. Anyway after you have completed then I take a flop it or fold it mentality as you are surely up against a strong holding. I'll usually stick with a Flush and OESD depending on the action and odds as well.

[Chris Dow]

Hey,

Once you've put in one bet and it's back around to you as one more bet you should never be folding. As far as the bets you later put in from the flop on chasing with odds or whatnot, that is ok, you are making money on those moves provided that you have odds but that is the sort of money that shows up in the long run so you can't get frustrated in the short run. Limit hold'em can definitely kind of seem like, ok I made a decision to play, now I have to throw in more money because I made that decision, what the heck it seems like I'm just chasing my own money! Finally, please don't take this wrong, but I would estimate your current poker knowledge at a very elementary level right now. What do I mean? Number 1, don't get frustrated by occasionaly poor results and bad decisions, you're learning right now! I also definitely mean that you need to keep reading. Read SSHE again, you don't have it all in yet. Read these boards! Your game can progress so far by getting involved here, you've made a great first step. Post hands! Especially the exact type of hands you're struggling with at the moment, in this case post one or two hands where you get sucked in preflop and feel unsure about how to proceed. Finally, think about poker and what you're doing and why. Welcome, and you're on your way.

[MagicFlea]

never limp then fold to a raise. Frequently fold to a 3-bet though. As for calling the flop bet "due to the odds", it may help to discount some of your over outs, as a pf raise may indicate that you are dominated. I agree its a tough situation to face a pf raiser heads up. A good reason to never open limp in middle position (and rarely in EP)

[ckessel]

I thought SSH even said always call one bet back to you, but 2 bets go by the "raised and reraised stat".

On a somewhat related note, SSH has your PFR quite a bit lower than many on here seem to recommend (SSH is about 8%, many here recommend well over 10%). Many will call opening with a limp "donking" [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. I think though the SSH guidelines are pretty damn good though and given post flop play is so critical, you can afford to ticker with preflop after you've got the SSH post flop concepts cemented.

[thejameser]

more than likely your leak is postflop, not preflop. you should be willing to call any one more bet with any limping hand or you should not be playing in that position in the first place. also, just b/c you have 2 sb invested preflop does not preclude the necessity to release a longshot on the flop. focus on postflop play(that is where the money is made and lost long-term), post some hands, and simply gain experience. also, sshe is not the only book worth reading. TOP, and after that try reading HEPAP. They all help to tie-in to the big picture of what we are trying to achieve. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[StellarWind]

The basic rule is don't call preflop and later fold before the flop. The basic rule has important exceptions:

1. It is often right to complete the SB and then fold if the BB raises. This is somewhat less clear if you had to pay 2/3 SB to complete.

2. If the original call was a clear error it may be correct to fold for one more bet.

3. If you need to call two or more bets cold it is often correct to fold. Aside from pocket pairs, it is usually not good to limp and then call two more bets cold. It is even sometimes correct to fold an open-raise that comes back capped if you are shorthanded and likely to be dominated.

4. On rare cases it is correct to limp and then fold to a single raise. Certainly if your opponent only raises with AA/KK you need to dump a hand like KTs heads up. Another example would be having a player yet to act who always backraises.