Why do people love israel so much??

[jaxmike]

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I really do not care what your BS theology has to say about the issue. Respond In terms of secular politics please.

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Why?

That is probably less reliable than theology unfortunately.

[theweatherman]

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Holy crap you have no idea what you're talking about. The Arabs subjugated the Jews for centuries. Significant Jewish populations in many Arab nations, such as Syria, no longer exist due to mistreatment, as just one example.

Moreover, "the Jews" are not subjugating Arabs. Assuming the truth of your hypothesis, Israel is. There is a significant difference. "The Jews" that are not in Israel are not doing anything to "the Arabs" other than predominantly living in peace with them.

And "the Jews" have a long, long way to go before their "subjugation" of any Arab population matches what Arab nations -- let alone much of the world -- has done to the Jews that lived among them.

I just find this marked dislike for Israel very befuddling. The Hutus killed millions of Tutsis, and nobody said or did anything. The Sudanese are murdering and raping other Sudanese, and nobody cares. It took years before anyone responded to the crap that went on in Bosnia, and even today the US is criticized for intervening. Yet Israel -- which reasonably can be considered to be trying to protect itself from annihilation at worst and, at a minimum, terrorism -- takes actions against a relatively small population of Palestinians, at least some of whom are members of terrorist organizations, actions which I don't disagree may be extreme or violent, and the world jumps up and down screaming bloody murder.


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Basically your saying that the Israelis should be allowed to get and eye for an eye? That sounds like a great way to guide international politics. Give Israel free reign until they cross the limit of their own persecution?? That makes absolutly no sense.

your examples are so perfect. Every one is a situation created by imperialism, as israel is. In everyone of these examples there are terrible situations brought on by imperialism. The violence caused by the existence of Israel is just another ill brought on by imperialism.

[MMMMMM]

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I despise the whole fundament of which the state is made and the effects this has on innocent people. I think a state made for one people/ religion/ nationality etc. is an undemocratic bad idea since those not belonging to that people/ religion/ nationality etc. often ends up being suppressed (like Jews traditionally in Europe and Palestinians in Israel today).

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Well, then you should despise EVEN MORE SO the legal codes of the neighboring countries of Israel, which spell out how Jews do not get full human rights in their countries. You should despise even more those countries which will legally not allow Jews to become citizens.

If you consider Israel's existence as a "Jewish state" to be despicable, you must, by applying the same standards, consider that the laws and very existence of its neighbors to be even more despicable.

Arabs can become citizens in Israel, and there enjoy full human rights, and freedom of religion. Jews cannot become citizens in various Arab countries, and do not enjoy comparable human rights, nor freedom of religion--and that's the LAW in those countries.

So, WHICH IS MORE DESPICABLE? And which should you object to more strenously?

[MMMMMM]

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The politics of Israel's neighbors in that region -- from its "friends" like Egypt to its mortal enemies like Syria and Iran -- are far more "despicable" than anything Israel could ever pull out of its ass, and is much more worthy of your scorn. Again, this fascination with Israel is most curious.


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There is really no such basic specific fascination on my part. But I very rarely see anybody defend human rights abuses conducted by Syria, Iran or Egypt. But I see a lot of defending or "explaining" of those conducted by Israel (not take this personally) and thus it is a more important issue to address.


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So which more merits scorn and condemnation: the human rights abuses conducted by Israel, or the human rights abuses conducted by Israel's neighboring countries?

[Arnfinn Madsen]

Okay, bookmark this MMMMMM [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]:

I despise Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia (I can extend the list if necessary....).

It is the whole "which is more despicable?"-attitude I am trying to attack because it is often used to defend "minor despicabilities" (not a valid word, but you get my meaning). It is a very defensive, pessimistic approach to policy and development; in a time where more resources, knowledge, consciousness on this issues etc. is available than at any previous time in history.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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The politics of Israel's neighbors in that region -- from its "friends" like Egypt to its mortal enemies like Syria and Iran -- are far more "despicable" than anything Israel could ever pull out of its ass, and is much more worthy of your scorn. Again, this fascination with Israel is most curious.


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There is really no such basic specific fascination on my part. But I very rarely see anybody defend human rights abuses conducted by Syria, Iran or Egypt. But I see a lot of defending or "explaining" of those conducted by Israel (not take this personally) and thus it is a more important issue to address.


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So which more merits scorn and condemnation: the human rights abuses conducted by Israel, or the human rights abuses conducted by Israel's neighboring countries?

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List the countries you want included.

[twowords]

Hold up.

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The Arabs subjugated the Jews for centuries. Significant Jewish populations in many Arab nations, such as Syria, no longer exist due to mistreatment, as just one example.


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Israel gave Palestinians the boot in 1948 and refused to ever let any refusgees return, and this led to much increased violence and subsequent expulsion of Jews around the Middle East.
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Moreover, "the Jews" are not subjugating Arabs. Assuming the truth of your hypothesis, Israel is. There is a significant difference. "The Jews" that are not in Israel are not doing anything to "the Arabs" other than predominantly living in peace with them.


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Israel is subjegating Palestinaians big time. Big time. In occupied terrority, Arabs could be imprisoned for no reason for months (various academics considered activist for example) and were subject to daily beatings, haressments, and humiliations. Demostrations which featured lots of yelling and some rock throwing, were responded to with live ammo. This went on into the 80s and the 90s, and has only very recently gotten better.
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And "the Jews" have a long, long way to go before their "subjugation" of any Arab population matches what Arab nations -- let alone much of the world -- has done to the Jews that lived among them.

I just find this marked dislike for Israel very befuddling. The Hutus killed millions of Tutsis, and nobody said or did anything. The Sudanese are murdering and raping other Sudanese, and nobody cares. It took years before anyone responded to the crap that went on in Bosnia, and even today the US is criticized for intervening. Yet Israel -- which reasonably can be considered to be trying to protect itself from annihilation at worst and, at a minimum, terrorism -- takes actions against a relatively small population of Palestinians, at least some of whom are members of terrorist organizations, actions which I don't disagree may be extreme or violent, and the world jumps up and down screaming bloody murder.

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And here's the rest of your post which argues that Israeli attoricites aren't as bad as others and the Arabs used to do worse 1000 years ago. This sort of speaks for itself.

[Meech]

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I'm even more confused as to why the hell they have nukes but the ARabs aren't allowed to have them.

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Whoa. I think the answer to this is pretty simple.

They would use them. Repeatedly.

[theweatherman]

whats the point of anyone having them if they dont intend to use them? Detterence is meaningless without the will to fire your missles.

Who are you to decide which nations are allowed to have power andwhich are not? I think some others on this forum have said that the Israelis deserve to be there because they fought for it. Well why aren't the Arabs allowed to fight back with modern weapons?

[dandy_don]

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whats the point of anyone having them if they dont intend to use them? Detterence is meaningless without the will to fire your missles.

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America and Israel have the "will", Iran and Syria have the "desire".