Flopping top set agianst draws

[glb]

B&M Pot Limit Omaha 1/2 with decent stacks 9 handed.

I flop top set with a small raise preflop.
5 people see the flop for $9.
Flop Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
I bet pot $45.
Two callers.

Turn 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I have no draws.
Should I pot again even though I am sure one probably has the wrap straight draw and one a flush draw?

I have just been running into this situation a lot and wonder if i should just keep jamming it up?

My main question is: when I flop top set or a straight should I keep betting pot, when the board is full of draws (ex. 2 flush draws & 2 straight draws)?

Note: I haven't been playing omaha very long and this may be a silly question.

[Bartholow]

With a safe turn you should definitely pot it again. If there's any place to be wary with a hand like this, it is on the flop. But even there if you have the nuts with top set it's almost always at least ok to just bet/raise at every opportunity.

[jhall23]

Yeah you should definetly not feel uncomfortable potting the turn again when a safe card falls. By the tone of your post it sounds like you are worried that by betting you are in rough shape against two big draws. The great thing about top set as oppossed to say a flopped straight is that you pretty much always have the redraw to the full/quads working for you. A reason not to pot the turn would be if you have an super aggro player behind you that you can count on for a bet which you can then check raise big (hopefully all in). If you can't count on that then potting it is the safe way to get money in while you have great equity.

Check out these simulations I did from the flop giving one opponent a wrap and the other the nut flush draw and yourself crappy side cards. You win the hand less than 1/2 the time, but your equity is still better than the other two players if you get money in and both call then you make out the best. Obviously on the turn they are in even worse shape than this as your equity increases.

pokenum -o qd qs 2c 4d - ks kc ts 9s - ah 4h 8s 8d -- qh js 5h
Omaha Hi: 666 enumerated boards containing Js Qh 5h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qs 2c Qd 4d 294 44.14 372 55.86 0 0.00 0.441
Ks Ts 9s Kc 171 25.68 495 74.32 0 0.00 0.257
8s 8d Ah 4h 201 30.18 465 69.82 0 0.00 0.302

pokenum -o qd qs 2c 4d - qc kc ts 9s - ah 4h as 8d -- qh js 5h
Omaha Hi: 666 enumerated boards containing Js Qh 5h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qs 2c Qd 4d 264 39.64 402 60.36 0 0.00 0.396
Ts 9s Kc Qc 183 27.48 483 72.52 0 0.00 0.275
As 8d Ah 4h 219 32.88 447 67.12 0 0.00 0.329

[dibbs]

I still view sets as drawing hands in PLO kinda, often youll have to pair the board to take it down as two blanks that dont make a straight or flush are rare.

Not the perfect blank turn card but one that I'm happy to see. Slam the pot knowing that you may have to give it up on the river, with a smile that you gave him 2 to 1.

[TheRempel]

There are times when you'll be a dog with top or middle set against an excellent draw. Here's a hand I had last night (I had the draw).

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1214465
pokenum -o ad tc td 7h - kd 8s 9s js -- 7s ts qc
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing Ts 7s Qc
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Tc Ad Td 7h 320 39.02 500 60.98 0 0.00 0.390
Js 9s 8s Kd 500 60.98 320 39.02 0 0.00 0.610

This is the only time in memory that I've seen a draw be such a huge favorite over a top or middle set. Generally, a really big draw (multi-card straight draw + flush draw) will have at most a 5% edge. Even these draws are somewhat rare. Top set is a push push push hand barring really exceptional circumstances.

With two callers, most likely some sharing outs, you're probably about a 40-50% favorite on the flop and 50-60% on the turn. Get as much money in when you're ahead.

Here's the set up (picked your sidecards are random) in which you are in the most trouble:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1214477
pokenum -o qc qd 6d 8s - ah 8h jc 5c - ac kc ts qs -- qh js 5h
Omaha Hi: 666 enumerated boards containing Js Qh 5h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
8s Qc Qd 6d 269 40.39 397 59.61 0 0.00 0.404
Jc 5c Ah 8h 209 31.38 453 68.02 4 0.60 0.317
Qs Ts Ac Kc 184 27.63 478 71.77 4 0.60 0.279

You're getting a nice chunk of equity in the pot. Blast away and be wary of the river.

[glb]

Thanks for the replies! I did pot the turn and they both called. 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] hit the river, and I check-folded. The two hands were A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I just wanted to make sure I was supposed to pot when I know they have good draws and will call.

[TheRempel]

The river was the worst possible card in the deck for you, by far, but you were a big favorite going to to the turn and river:

Turn:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1214537
pokenum -o qc qd 6d 8c - ah 4h 8s 9c - kh jh ad 2s -- qh js 5h
Omaha Hi: 666 enumerated boards containing Js Qh 5h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qc 8c Qd 6d 404 60.66 262 39.34 0 0.00 0.607
8s 9c Ah 4h 184 27.63 482 72.37 0 0.00 0.276
2s Ad Kh Jh 78 11.71 588 88.29 0 0.00 0.117
River: http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1214539
pokenum -o qc qd 6d 8c - ah 4h 8s 9c - kh jh ad 2s -- qh js 5h 7c
Omaha Hi: 36 enumerated boards containing Js 7c Qh 5h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qc 8c Qd 6d 25 69.44 11 30.56 0 0.00 0.694
8s 9c Ah 4h 8 22.22 28 77.78 0 0.00 0.222
2s Ad Kh Jh 3 8.33 33 91.67 0 0.00 0.083

[jhall23]

Looks well played. You got money in while ahead and then were able to fold to the ugliest of river cards. Don't let the results sway you.

P.S. Where do they spread 1/2 PLO live? Most games in the states that I've heard about have been 5/10 or bigger.

[autobet]

Well played.

Usually as in all forms of poker getting your money in with the best hand is +EV.

[glb]

It actually is a 1/2 NL hold'em game, but late in the night when just the regulars are left, we start switching between the two every round. It is a great game because a lot of the guys haven't played that much. I love when they play AAxx!!