Two Plus Two Older Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Older Archives > PL/NL Texas Hold'em > Small Stakes Pot-, No-Limit Hold'em

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-24-2005, 11:19 AM
dauler dauler is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 0
Default Balance between cheap cards and pot building with marginal hands

I'm having a lot of trouble balancing the two concepts of not giving cheap cards when I'm likely to be ahead and building big pots with marginal hands. I tend to be deathly afraid of giving cheap cards and thus end up building big pots with hands that are subject to reverse implied odds and end up spewing my chips on later rounds. I feel like a pussy for folding fairly large pots against cards that I can't be sure helped them, so I end up calling later streets more often than I should.

How do you guys approach hands on early streets that are likely to be best now, but a majority of the deck are scare cards for you? And how do you follow up on later streets?

Here's an example of a hand that could have gotten me into trouble on the turn/river if an opponent had called me on the flop and then gotten aggressive on later streets.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter

MP ($29.1)
Button ($24.95)
Hero ($24.75)
BB ($24.65)
UTG ($13.6)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $0.1.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.75) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $1</font>.

Final Pot: $1.75
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-24-2005, 11:30 AM
sting sting is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 42
Default Re: Balance between cheap cards and pot building with marginal hands

Play marginal hands only in position and you go a long way toward solving this problem.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-24-2005, 11:31 AM
Tim H Tim H is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 190
Default Re: Balance between cheap cards and pot building with marginal hands

quit calling with trash
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-24-2005, 11:34 AM
swolfe swolfe is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 632
Default Re: Balance between cheap cards and pot building with marginal hands

fold preflop
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-24-2005, 11:34 AM
swedeD swedeD is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 203
Default Re: Balance between cheap cards and pot building with marginal hands

OOP I go for a check-raise with hands like this, either taking down the pot directly or, if I get called, being prepared to fold.

If there is to much action, I fold and skip the check-raise. But if only someone in late position make a bet, I will make a bigger check-raise.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-24-2005, 11:46 AM
PinkSteel PinkSteel is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Kiddie pool
Posts: 446
Default Re: Balance between cheap cards and pot building with marginal hands

I am a donkey but... the more I learn this game, the fewer small blinds I complete. Completing may seem cheap, but you're OOP to the entire table as soon as you do it.

This hand is an absolute no-question-about-it preflop fold. Maybe not if the entire table had folded around to you and it's just a blind battle, but definitely with anyone else calling.

If you see a Q on the flop, two players behind you may also have one, in which case you're outkicked and OOP and you're going to get killed.

If you see a 7-high flop like you did, then any turn/river card higher than a 7 (aside from a Q) will scare you, and even a Q will have it's problems, as above.

The only way you make money on this is by betting out the flop and having everyone else fold, and if they don't, you're dead.

Dump it. POSITION RULES, and you don't have it. (Not that I would even call it from the button; Q7o just isn't playable for a profit.)
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-24-2005, 11:56 AM
dauler dauler is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 0
Default Re: Balance between cheap cards and pot building with marginal hands

Point taken, I guess that I have more leaks than I thought. But this doesn't really address the concept that I'm trying to fix, maybe another hand with less preflop issues would better illustrate my difficulty. How do you all handle this type of hand? Oh, and on this hand there is the issue that I've got less than a full buy in on the table, I had just lost the hand before and hadn't had a chance to rebuy to full yet, please ignore that.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter

BB ($20)
UTG ($21.05)
MP ($16.45)
Button ($49.99)
Hero ($17.4)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $0.1.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero (poster) raises to $0.9</font>, BB calls $0.75.

Flop: ($2) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $2</font>, BB calls $2.

Final Pot: $6
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-24-2005, 12:07 PM
PinkSteel PinkSteel is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Kiddie pool
Posts: 446
Default Re: Balance between cheap cards and pot building with marginal hands

That's a very different hand. I don't play 6max, but it seems to be populated by an entirely different species of creature.

Now it's just you and BB, who may think you're on a steal even after your flop bet, and who may have called with any two. I couldn't imagine how to handle this at 6max.

Full ring, from SB, with any other callers, I flat call this and play for set value. You're still OOP, and overcards are still a nightmare. You need to see another 7, or you're done with the hand. But that's just full ring with callers; I suck at blind-stealing games.

EDIT: Sorry, I only just noticed that your first hand was 6max also, so please take my prior post with much salt, it was full-ring talk. But I still think much of it applies.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-24-2005, 12:47 PM
Zag Zag is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 515
Default Re: Balance between cheap cards and pot building with marginal hands

You're right, this is a better example.

I think that the answer to your question is that you should be betting for value less than you are. Consider if we ranked all possible hands at any given time from 1 to 10, where 1 is playing the board and 10 is the invulnerable stone cold nuts. If you bet, the most common reaction from your opponent is that he will fold anything 5 or less, call with 6-8, and raise with 9-10.

Look what happens if you have a 7 and bet out. Almost all the hands worse than yours will fold, but all the better hands will call or raise. Therefore, your bet will gain you money only against an opponent holding a 6, and will either cost you money or not gain any. Now it is true that there is value to getting that 5 to fold, who might have improved to a better hand than yours, but it is little compared to the amount you lose to a 9 that raises you.

You say that you are concerned with giving up free cards, but how much does that really cost you? Since you only have a mediocre hand, anyway, you will be able to release it pretty easily anyway. The problem with getting drawn out on is much more pronounced when you have a 9 (very strong but vulnerable). With these hands, you are probably going to call the opponent down, so you are risking a lot more reverse implied odds.

So, for this hand, I like the bet out preflop and on the flop, but I think you should be done there. Since you are OOP, you are likely to get outplayed. When you check the turn, the opponent is likely to bet and you are going to fold, but them's the breaks. Since you can beat a bluff (plus you have a gutshot) you should call some of the time, based on your read, but your "usual" play here would be to check and fold an unhelpful turn.

Note, he might check behind, and it might be you who needs the free card. If he has an 8, then you are drawing for a 6 or a 7.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-24-2005, 01:24 PM
Bongo Bongo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 44
Default Re: Balance between cheap cards and pot building with marginal hands

This is a really good topic I think. I find myself in this situation quite often with hands such as JJ and lower pocket pairs as well as with the suited connectors so it is not just a matter of pre-flop play. These situations are really tricky and I’m far from comfortable with them.

I agree with checking and folding against three or more opponents with these marginal hands (not always though). However, there is no way you can just give up your pocket pair heads up. Your opponent has to take it from you. The flop here is easy. You have to bet or check-raise. After all you actually have something. If you get raised, then you’ll have to start guessing and evaluating. The trickiest situation arises when your opponent just calls. If I had two opponents I would probably give up, but it is a hard decision. Against one opponent I’m tempted to fire again. Quite often your opponent is just trying to see if you really like your hand (I believe this is bad play). He doesn’t believe you have anything because pre-flop raisers always bet the flop. He could have anything. Of course this is very player dependent.

On the river I would probably check and hope my opponent doesn’t bluff me out. If he has something shaky then he will probably check behind. If he was on a draw, well then he can steal if he is aggressive.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.