Too weak(?)

#1 11-30-2005, 08:13 PM

My WTSD stat is too low, possibly made even lower by a downswing. I think hands like this may be the reason...

I hadn't played enough to get reads but villains are most likely not very good.

Party Poker 0.15/0.30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds, MP1 folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP2 bets, Hero folds...

macdaddy991 · #2 11-30-2005, 08:21 PM

Raise or fold that hand PF. Limping is terrible. If you think you have the best hand on the flop, then you should raise. If you believe that you are behind a queen then you are not getting the odds for your 5 outer. (Maybe 6 if you are a BDFD whore), but I still think a flop fold is ok here.

HouseCalls · #3 11-30-2005, 08:41 PM

Preflop - ok
Flop - with middle pair good kicker I think you have to raise or fold here (alot depends on reads). You would like to get Q poor kicker to fold as well as any A-junk hands that are out and maybe even flush draws.
Turn - I would probably call down to an unknown here (given typical low limit players who will play with marginal hands) but again I'd feel better about it if I were heads up rather than 3 handed.

Guthrie · #4 11-30-2005, 08:43 PM

Although SSHE says to limp PF, even Ed Miller now says you should raise PF here.

In any event, calling is probably the worst thing you can do on the flop. You should either raise or fold. Against this many opponents, you're probably screwed anyway, but raising might drive out some of them, while calling won't.

The problem I have with hands like this is that with this many opponents seeing the flop, at least one of them probably has a queen. Bad players love to play any face card, and any two is even better. So this flop may well have paired not only you, but also about half your opponents. At least one of the rest may have an ace and be waiting to spike top pair.

Raising here might drive out the aces that can beat you later, and the jacks that could pair their kicker, but in a game of loose, passive opponents, it will also drive the weak queens into call-down mode and you're beat at showdown.

Better opponents, had you raised PF and again on the flop, might put you on AA, KK, QQ, JJ, or AQ, and actually fold their queen with a bad kicker. Low-limit fish will never, ever do this. They'll call.

I suck at poker, and I may be completely wrong here, so maybe someone else will have a better plan.

Webster · #5 12-01-2005, 12:34 AM

Pre flop is ok but I would have raised the flop.

I would raise KQo pre flop but limping in with KJo is ok I feel. You are not going to fold the good hands and raising might drive out the bad hands that will feed the pot IF you hit.

By raising you take the lead and that is want you really want - otherwise you stuck calling. Raising could bring you a free card and it would have gottin the button to fold which increases you odds of winning.

The argument for raising preflop is pretty good. I think it's a texture thing but I'd like to get in cheaply, the to limpers probebly have hands like yours - if they were better they would have raised.

The real danger is what if there isa raise after you. BUT - that's another post :-)

beset7 · #6 12-01-2005, 03:25 AM

With this particular hand I have been raising in MP. If he donked into me I'd raise the flop. Given that you limped I think it's raise or fold on the flop with folding > raising.

#7 12-01-2005, 07:18 AM

Thanks for the feedback! I hadn't really considered raising preflop, my normal play here is to limp. I guess this is another hand to bring up my PFR with.

But I do feel the flop is where I screwed up the most, choosing the worst out of three options. I am a little surprised that most seem to advocate that folding > raising though even if it seems to be thin. At what pot size is raise > fold? If we assign ourselves 6 outs we need 6.8:1 odds to continue and our pot odds here are 7:1. Is this edge too thin to push?

Anyway, the rest of the hand:

Party Poker 0.15/0.30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds, MP1 folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP2 bets, Hero folds, Button calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 6.50 BB

Results in white below: 
MP2 has Ah 2h (high card, ace).
Button has 5d 5h (one pair, fives).
Outcome: Button wins 6.50 BB.