Is Doyles's expose the aces play legal?

[Percula]

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The BB flips the A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], I fliped up the K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and after much thought called.

After the hand he told me he figured that I was on KK with the redraw to the flush.


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Man is he dumb. I usually induce people to call my AI when they show me a hand that beats mine.

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I think flipping the K was dumb. But apprently it worked, so yeah, that guy is dumb

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Not at all dumb.

Play the hand from the "villians" prespective... You have a tight (preflop) player making a raise from UTG, his likely range of hands based on your hours of play with him are AA, KK, QQ as the most likely and you look down and see a strong ace (strong for a BB hand anyway) of AJo and call. Risky but the UTG player has a tendency to overplay big pairs so you have good implied odds of stacking him.

Now when the flop comes AQ3 and you "know" the UTG mostly holds AA for a set, KK for a under pair or QQ for a set you lead out to find out where you are at with UTG, then he pushes on you, and he has done this a couple times before on the table and not always with the nuts (showing a couple bluffs after the hand), so it is hard to tell by the push if you are way ahead or way behind. So you flip your ace up hopeful to get a read, instead UTG flips up a K and that varifies your first read of KK and call with top pair good kicker looking to stack UTG with an overplayed big pair.

And yes I set this play up. I know how players see me on the table and exploited that in this case. There were several comments on the table along the lines of "Wow! I never put you on that!".

[Rick Nebiolo]

As an aside if you do go all-in (primarily in no limit) don't look at the pot or your opponent. This will help prevent giving off these tells.

I like to consistently let my eyes glaze over and look at a spot in front of my chips.

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

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TDA rules say that in this situation, you could incur a penalty (time away from table), but your hand will NOT be killed.

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Because I heard tournament poker rules in this area were different I looked this up and wondered what the heck it meant. IOW, what determines incurring a penalty of time away?

Note that I haven't played tournaments for years and haven't watched much TV poker.

~ Rick

[Aces McGee]

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So you flip your ace up hopeful to get a read, instead UTG flips up a K and that varifies your first read of KK and call with top pair good kicker looking to stack UTG with an overplayed big pair.


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If you had KK, there's no way you'd flip the Kc, is there? I never play no-limit, but AcKc is about the only hand that makes sense once you raise all in on that flop, and then show the Kc after your opponent has shown that he already has at least a pair of aces.

-McGee

[Rick Nebiolo]

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It's more commonly allowed in cash games like Doyle played in. I've seen it done at the MGM as well as on live at the bike.

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I played Live At Bike last Tuesday and saw a player in seat 3 not only turn his cards face up when facing a bet but he also pushed his cards about five inches toward the muck. Pushing cards forward face up when facing a bet could easily be interpreted as a fold so be careful!

~ Rick

PS When I reviewed the archives (hand took place about 47 minutes into the webcast) it turned out there was some sort of verbal agreement to expose the cards (my hearing at the table with background noise isn't what it used to be) so everything was copacetic.

[Black Aces 518]

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So you flip your ace up hopeful to get a read, instead UTG flips up a K and that varifies your first read of KK and call with top pair good kicker looking to stack UTG with an overplayed big pair.


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If you had KK, there's no way you'd flip the Kc, is there? I never play no-limit, but AcKc is about the only hand that makes sense once you raise all in on that flop, and then show the Kc after your opponent has shown that he already has at least a pair of aces.

-McGee

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[J.A.Sucker]

This is perfectly OK to do in a cash game. Usually, people don't do it, but it's fine. In a multiway pot, there are issues with it, but in a headsup pot, I've seen it done lots and it's not against the rules. In tourneys, it is against the rules, thanks to Ray Zee. He's ruining life for all of us... [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Jersey Nick]

Here’s a similar situation from a home game last night that I’m cross posting here because this thread came up in my search.

One table tournament - 6 players left
UTG folds, MP folds, CO folds, Dealer Calls, SB completes, BB checks
Flop K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
SB checks, BB bets, Dealer Calls, SB folds
Turn 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
BB checks, Dealer checks
River A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
SB goes all-in
The dealer thinks for a minute and then tables K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and says, “I think this two pair is good. I don’t think you slow played the flush and I don’t believe you’ve got AK or you would have come out stronger pre-flop. I call”. SB mucks and concedes pot.

Other players at the table felt that Dealer tabling his cards to get a read on BB was a questionable manuever. Nothing in the home rulebook (RRoP) addressed this issue.

From the TDA Rules:
“6. Penalties: A penalty MAY be invoked if a player exposes any card with action pending, if a card(s) goes off the table, if softplay occurs, or similar incidents take place.”

“36. A player who exposes his cards during the play may incur a penalty, but will not have his hand killed.”

Does anyone know what the spirit/reasoning behind these rules is?

The players were heads-up and this didn’t influence anyone else’s betting since there was no more action. So what do you think: was this an angle shoot, a rule violation, or a good play?

[Al_Capone_Junior]

According to my source in the TDA circle, a penalty may mean 10,20,30,40 minutes away from the table, in which case you're blinded off in the meantime, and it might mean disqualification and your chips removed from play in highly grievous and extreme cases. Simply doing the doyle trick once will result in a warning, doing it twice, a time penalty. Doing it a third time, a kick in the nuts. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

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In a cash game, heads up, I would rule with perfect consistancy that exposing one or both of your hole cards to get a read is legal.

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Agreed.

I also agree on your thoughts about multi-way pots, or heads-up side pots with the third player all-in. No dice.

al