could a gambling addict ever be good at poker?

[Guruman]

I saw an episode of "intervention" on A&E the other day that featured a really badly addicted gambler. He was over $300,000 in debt, jobless, and his parents had sold their home to help him pay his debts. He hid money, drove 3 hourse to play blackjack at a CA casino several times a week, and was clearly on an emotional rollercoaster every time he saw action. Every win was what was supposed to happen, and every loss was some sort of evil conspiracy.

Here's the crazy part - the guy was a certified genius. He taught college biochemistry classes at age 16 with rap at a university and gained national attention for a while. This man obviously has the mental capacity to understand concepts like EV, house odds, etc. Despite his ability to understand these concepts, he would repeatedly bet every cent that he could get anyone to lend him on a -EV game like blackjack! I doubt that he'd ever studied gambling theory though, because in his dreamworld he expect the house to win "once every four or five hands." Holy cow.

So here's the question: if a compulsive gambler were to spend time learning the game of poker, could he ever get over the irrational perspective that he deserves to win enough to actually play the numbers? Would he rationalize raises and re-raises as bluffs by people with lesser hands and call down? Could he control his emotions at the table long enough to not give away his hand?

or, would his compulsiveness cause him to spend countless hours studying his hand and opponents? could his relentless agression eventually work for him in this setting?

any thoughts?

[applej25]

I think TILTING would eventually ruin the compulsive gambler. When he hit a bad run he would just move up in limits to "make it back" quick. Sitting in a game shortstacked until he eventually lost it all.

Thats my take.

[ShawnHoo]

I personally know a guy who lost tens of thousands playing blackjack and craps back in college. He went bankrupt and, after supposedly swearing off gambling for a while, got into poker right around the same time as the WPT explosion.

He plays crazy hours at low stakes all the time nowadays, mostly online. He gets the basic idea of playing "good" hands, but is pretty weak-tight in general and will go crazy (emotionally, though not necessarily with his chips) if a player "gets lucky" with a bad starting hand. I'd estimate he's a small winner at the stakes he plays, but would be easy pickings at anything bigger. Fortunately for him, he's intelligent enough to realize this and manages to play within his bankroll.

[wuwei]

Can't recall where I saw this, but there's a quote from Doyle where he basically says "we're all compulsive gamblers, we're just really good at it." Referring to himself, Phil Ivey, and others who play the big game. So yah, I think an addict could be good at poker.

[miajag81]

One of my friends did exactly that. Very capable player, but no emotional control whatsoever. Lost about 7 grand at 30/60 trying to chase a couple hundred bucks lost at 3/6 and 5/10.

[HDPM]

Like TJ Cloutier? Or Archie Karras? Or Stuey? Guys like that you mean? Do you know how many millions were (and are) blown by excellent poker players at games they couldn't win at?

[Al Schoonmaker]

Several GREAT poker players are pathological gamblers. Stu Ungar was just the best known.Some of the people you see on TV are deeply in debt because they can't keep away from negative EV games.

It's very sad, but unquestionably true.

Regards,

Al

[SNOWBALL138]

There's a difference between being good at poker, and winning at poker. I think that the gambling addict would have a lot of trouble winning at poker due to poor emotional control, an unwillingness to quit when tired/sick/outmatched.

Now, that said, I seriously doubt that most of the big name players are not total addicts. I mean, c'mon. Do you know how rich Ivey must be by now? Why is he still pulling huge marathons? He's a young, attractive guy. Why is he spending all his time playing poker? He's addicted!

When Stuey when his second world series he was asked what he was going to do with his money, and he replied "lose it"
He was asked what he does when he's not gambling. He replied "If I'm not eating and I'm not sleeping, I'm gambling."

He wasn't kidding. This guy died broke.

A lot of big name tourneyment players are BACKED. They can't afford to stake themselves. T.J. Cloutier is still backed by Lyle Berman as far as I know, and he's won more tourneyments than anyone I can think of. So, I think a lot of top players are actually top losers in a lot of ways.

Good gamblers do something more fundamental than betting on their cards or recognizing pot odds. They bet on themselves to win. This also means refusing to bet on themselves from time to time. Greenstein says Chip Reese quits a game when he's not a favorite to win. This is a very important skill.

Honestly, I would rather be Chip Reese and win than be Stu Ungar and be dead with a bad movie made on my life and a bunch of 20 year old kids raving about how I was the greatest player ever to live.

[popniklas]

Excellent post!

[antifish225]

I too saw that show, pretty sad really...the thing to keep in mind is that gambling is an ADDICTION just like smoking crack or drinking are additictions - as such people by definition do not have control over what they are doing - as such I think that a real compulsive gambler could not be a LONG TERM winner at poker no matter how smart they were, they would always fall back into the 'rush' that drives thier addiction and this would affect their game adversly - however I do think that all good poker players NEED to be 'gamblers' if they plan to truly be sucseful, taking risks is part of the game - however in the show mentioned there is now way that guy would have the self disipline to be a good poker player (you should also watch the Movie Owning Mahony - one of the best movies about the gambling addiction that is based on a true story about someone from Toronto - when that story originally broke in Canada some 20 years ago it was amazing to me at the lengths some people can go to feed their additiction).....