Stop'n'go - terrible, or good move?

Rooger · #1 12-12-2005, 09:41 PM

Party $5 R&A - down to 20. I've been very aggressive since we got in the money. Villain is unknown.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20000 (10 handed) converter

MP1 (t81915)
MP2 (t40760)
MP3 (t98659)
CO (t175645)
Button (t44284)
SB (t201524)
Hero (t163191)
UTG (t140367)
UTG+1 (t139960)
UTG+2 (t262484)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
5 folds, MP3 raises to t40000, 3 folds, Hero calls t20000.

Flop: (t90000) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero is all-in t123191

I don't use stop'n'go that often - is this a correct spot to do it? I hate people min-raising my blinds - but is villains stack to small to make the move?

Lloyd · #2 12-12-2005, 09:49 PM

This is not good. There's no reason to get involved with this hand. The villain mini-raises for almost half his stack. I'd be shocked if you were ahead with J5. Fold and be done with the hand.

The reason you utilize a stop and go is because you think you have the best hand pre-flop but do not have enough folding equity (therefore if you push pre-flop you're likely to be called). Here, you don't have enough folding equity but you're not ahead of his range so the conditions for a stop and go aren't there.

Plus, I'd be very cautious of a small stack mini-raising for almost half his stack.

#3 12-12-2005, 09:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
but is villains stack to small to make the move?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's too big... just fold; this is too expensive.

Rooger · #4 12-12-2005, 09:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is not good. There's no reason to get involved with this hand. The villain mini-raises for almost half his stack. I'd be shocked if you were ahead with J5. Fold and be done with the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I'm ahead PF - but I think I can push villain off overcards if he doesn't hit.

[ QUOTE ]
The reason you utilize a stop and go is because you think you have the best hand pre-flop but do not have enough folding equity (therefore if you push pre-flop you're likely to be called). Here, you don't have enough folding equity but you're not ahead of his range so the conditions for a stop and go aren't there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm obviously not into it then - why would you want FE if you think you've got the better hand before the flop?

[ QUOTE ]
Plus, I'd be very cautious of a small stack mini-raising for almost half his stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Normally I would too, but this is the Party $5 R&A - 80% of the PF raises are min-raises when the blinds are this big.

Rooger · #5 12-12-2005, 09:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but is villains stack to small to make the move?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's too big... just fold; this is too expensive.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's got 3xBB left which is less than in the pot - what is appropriate?

surfinillini · #6 12-12-2005, 10:00 PM

from what I've seen on multiple threads, the stop and go has to be one of the most overrated and misunderstood moves in all of tournament poker???

Lloyd · #7 12-12-2005, 10:00 PM

A perfect example of a stop and go is when you have a pair and think there's a good chance you're up against overcards. If you push pre-flop, you'll get called because you don't have enough FE. By utilizing the Stop and Go, you might get your opponent to fold if he doesn't hit the flop. The net result is that your opponent only sees 3 cards versus 5. It's also possible that if you're up against an overpair (let's say 77 vs 99) that you'll get him to fold if overcards come.

You're trying to utilize a stop and go as a re-steal and I don't believe it's designed for such. You're often called when you push the flop (because you don't have much FE, just more than you had pre-flop) and you're usually behind when you do this with trash.

Rooger · #8 12-12-2005, 10:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A perfect example of a stop and go is when you have a pair and think there's a good chance you're up against overcards. If you push pre-flop, you'll get called because you don't have enough FE. By utilizing the Stop and Go, you might get your opponent to fold if he doesn't hit the flop. The net result is that your opponent only sees 3 cards versus 5. It's also possible that if you're up against an overpair (let's say 77 vs 99) that you'll get him to fold if overcards come.

You're trying to utilize a stop and go as a re-steal and I don't believe it's designed for such. You're often called when you push the flop (because you don't have much FE, just more than you had pre-flop) and you're usually behind when you do this with trash.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, thanks for the clarification.
At the moment, I figured I was getting 3.5:1 on my call, I might take it down if I flopped a pair, and I could push villain off overcards if the flop came low.

The actual flop was
Flop: (t90000) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Giving me one pair. I pushed, villain called with KJo. Just thought it would be interesting if it would've been a good move if the flop was low, and I didn't hit.

aLOWdAkING · #9 12-12-2005, 11:01 PM

Yes, that is a better flop to donk all in on. Doesn't classify as a traditional "stop-n-go" though because you don't intend to push on the flop no matter what hits, at least I hope not.

#10 12-13-2005, 07:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
A perfect example of a stop and go is when you have a pair and think there's a good chance you're up against overcards. If you push pre-flop, you'll get called because you don't have enough FE. By utilizing the Stop and Go, you might get your opponent to fold if he doesn't hit the flop. The net result is that your opponent only sees 3 cards versus 5. It's also possible that if you're up against an overpair (let's say 77 vs 99) that you'll get him to fold if overcards come.

You're trying to utilize a stop and go as a re-steal and I don't believe it's designed for such. You're often called when you push the flop (because you don't have much FE, just more than you had pre-flop) and you're usually behind when you do this with trash.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Lloyd's example of a stop&go with a small pair is an excellent example of a great time to use it, but I disagree that the only time to use S&G is when you think you are ahead in the hand.

I think a S&G is much more about a hand when you think you have little pre-flop fold equity but good post-flop fold equity. You must, of course, act first after the flop.

Combine your post flop fold equity with the chance that you might hit your hand and it might be best after the flop in order to decide if the S&G is right for the situation.