TT on Q high flop.

Borodog · #1 10-25-2005, 07:56 PM

No reads on either player. Flop raiser has played 1 hand of 20 I have on him.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $2.
Hero raises, 1 fold, MP2 calls, CO (poster) calls, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP2 raises, CO calls, Button folds, BB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP2 raises, CO calls, Hero folds.

River: (13.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 bets, CO folds.

Final Pot: 14.25 BB

#2 10-25-2005, 08:07 PM

would you have folded after the turn bet if CO folded or would you have continued for another bet to the river?

shant · #3 10-25-2005, 08:09 PM

This is a tough one because you don't want to give a free card and it just became more likely he doesn't have a Q. I think I play this the same.

Borodog · #4 10-25-2005, 08:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
would you have folded after the turn bet if CO folded or would you have continued for another bet to the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

I put CO on a flush draw, so he didn't really concern me. I was folding to the [turn] raise even heads up.

But I look at this hand afterward and I think, "This ****ing sucks."

If I have a Queen, would I stop & go the turn? I think not. I should've checkraised the turn. As it is, flop raiser can easily be raising 9s to protect against the flush draw behind him, my "overcards," fold out a hand like tens, which he did, and if I call, check behind for a free showdown. Considering that by the river there's 3 queens on board, I'm nearly certain I folded a winner.

On the other hand, if the 3rd queen doesn't hit the river . . . do I even remember this hand? I'm not sure.

Should have posted up to the turn.

Nick C · #5 10-25-2005, 08:18 PM

When I played 2/4 regularly, I eventually kind of abandoned the turn stop-n-go, as it seemed like 2/4 players who with raised a draw on the flop would pretty much never take a free card anyway.

But the game may have changed since then, and in any event, I think your line is all right. Once you get popped again on the turn, it does seem like you're behind.

And it appears that CO was the one with the draw.

I think one thing to consider against a flop raiser who's as seemingly tight as MP2 appears to be after a (measly) 20 hands is that he probably won't have a flush draw very often here, since there just aren't all that many broadway heart combos available. So I think we're hoping he'll also raise the flop sometimes with a hand like 88. (And we're also hoping we're ahead of CO, which is far from certain.)

I don't know. It's an uncomfortable hand. And if you suspect a free-card flop raise, then I think check-folding the turn becomes something to consider. This would leave you vulnerable to a follow-up bet with a draw or a follow-up bet with a worse pocket pair, though.

Nick C · #6 10-25-2005, 08:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Considering that by the river there's 3 queens on board, I'm nearly certain I folded a winner.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's nearly certain. AQ/KQ alone is 8 combos.

crazygoose · #7 10-25-2005, 08:26 PM

If CO folded I don't think check calling down after that flop raise is a terrible move, especially without a read on the guy. I really don't like the donk bet on the turn. Not enough 24 players raise their draws for free cards to make this a +ev move. Given the way it played out it looks like MP2 had a Q or flopped a set.

JacksonTens · #8 10-25-2005, 08:30 PM

Does anyone c/c the turn? I mean what exactly does donking achieve. Save the bet and get to showdown. That would be my goal in a hand like this...

I c/c turn, and then when I see the 3rd Q. I c/c to induce bluff or lose less to a Q.

JT [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

crazygoose · #9 10-25-2005, 08:31 PM

agreed.

Borodog · #10 10-25-2005, 08:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone c/c the turn? I mean what exactly does donking achieve. Save the bet and get to showdown. That would be my goal in a hand like this...

I c/c turn, and then when I see the 3rd Q. I c/c to induce bluff or lose less to a Q.

JT [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll tell you what donking the turn achieves. It allows the guy with the 8s or 9s, or the other tens, to say, "There's no way this guy doesn't c/r with a queen, I raise!" [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]