2nd biggest pot ever...could it have been my first?

jasonHoldEm · #1 08-10-2004, 12:12 AM

My second hand at the table. I have stats on MP2 (based on PT exported stats, he's LAG) but no specific notes/read yet.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 3-bets, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button folds, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (19 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 raises, MP2 3-bets, MP3 folds, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (17 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 caps, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

River: (37 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 41 BB

Results and comments in follow-up post...

golgo13sf · #2 08-10-2004, 12:31 AM

I might re-raise the pre-flop, depends on your table image, since you just sat down they don't know your hand standards, so you should re-raise and cap it, looks like they're all there to gamboooool anyway.

Cap the flop. You're up against AA is my guess, and probably a flush. They're coming along no matter what, charge them for the ride.

Turn and river look fine. Your only stroke of bad luck was that it wasn't the 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on the river, imagine the action then.

joker122 · #3 08-10-2004, 12:38 AM

I don't understand why you didn't cap the flop. Trying to keep UTG and UTG+1 in the hand?

jasonHoldEm · #4 08-10-2004, 12:43 AM

I'm mainly looking for feedback on the flop and turn ation...the lack of river action was disappointing, but I'm not sure what else could have been done. Smoothcalling the flop and then betting out on the turn...it made sense when I did it, but now I'm a little confused if it was the best course of action.

I guess part of the reason I smoothcalled the flop was that I wanted to get a safe card off before I decided what to do. The pot is enormous and I think it's unlikely I'm going to get anyone out of the hand with anything resembling a hand or a draw so it seems I should have just kept pounding away. However, capping the flop might have limited my action on the future rounds (i.e. if MP2 is pushing an overpair he might slow down)...I'd rather maximize my earn on the bigger streets, but I wonder if it would have made that much difference in a typical situation.

I get a safe card on the turn and bet hoping MP2 will raise and I can three-bet, then he caps which is fine with me. The river makes me very happy, I decided to bet out as I thought this would be the best way to get the most bets into the pot.

I still can't believe that MP2 didn't raise the river. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Results:
Hero shows Js Jc (full house, jacks full of threes).
UTG shows Qd Qs (two pair, queens and threes).
MP1 shows Jh Td (two pair, jacks and threes).
MP2 shows 8c 8d (full house, eights full of threes).
Outcome: Hero wins 41 BB.

Anyways, thanks in advance, sorry if these seems a little disjointed.

J

Vehn · #5 08-10-2004, 01:44 AM

I like the flop and turn play just fine but you have a clear river checkraise here.

SpaceAce · #6 08-10-2004, 03:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I like the flop and turn play just fine but you have a clear river checkraise here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with this at all. No way am I going to risk missing a ton of bets on the river. I obviously have the best hand and even I don't quite have the nuts so there is no way I can be sure that MP2, who must have a worse hand than me, is going to bet the river after all that action. Now, even if I check and MP2 does bet, I am going to be forcing the people in between us who probably have comparitively weak hands to call two cold. I don't want to extract one more bet from MP2 and lose three bets from the callers in between us by pushing them off hands that would call one more but not two more. I much prefer to bet the river, get calls from the weak hands in between myself and MP2 and hopefully get MP2 to raise again.

I don't think there is much benefit at all to a river check-raise. If you pull it off, you risk losing all the weakies in the middle. If you bet out, you almost certainly get called by at least one of the players in between you and MP2 and possibly get a shot at reraising, anyway.

SpaceAce

Vehn · #7 08-10-2004, 03:40 AM

You may be right, I thought about it a bit more and betting vs checkraising is closer than I thought. The main thing though is that the river action here is extremely rare. Most of the time the two players between you and MP2 will be calling all those flop and turn bets with DRAWS, not made hands, so its unlikely that both or even one will be calling on the river here after all that action. So in that case a river checkraise (and the chance that the river will be checked through is extremely low based on the description in the original post) is much more +EV than betting.

chesspain · #8 08-10-2004, 08:16 AM

I'ld probably cap the flop. Although you have a great hand and a PF raiser who almost certainly looks to have an overpair, you have three people trapped between the two of you, each of whom will definately throw in one more bet. Furthermore, there is no guarantee that anyone is going to given you significant action on the expensive streets, unless this person improves to a hand that beats a set. Finally, your hand is way too strong to risk going for a turn checkraise...meaning, if you are going to bet out on the turn, you might as well cap the flop.

I think you played the other streets fine.

boring chris · #9 08-10-2004, 09:14 AM

The only reason I would be hesistant about capping the flop is because I would be afraid of UTG and/or UTG+1 leaving the hand. Keep those 2 in resulted in getting 9 more BB out of them (conbined). Now, it would have been logical to assume that MP2 probably would have called 2 more SBs on the flop because he raised preflop and therefore is showing a decent hand. But UTG+1 was limping all along, and an additional 2 raises behind him might have pushed him out. If that was the case, the raise would have resulted in gaining an extra 3 SBs (1.5 BB). However, you would have missed out on the 4 BBs that he put in on the turn and river.

Also, though, one must factor in the risk involved with letting another person see a card for cheaper and therefore giving one more person the opportunity to outdraw your top trips. This would be a solid reason to cap the flop.

-chris

SpaceAce · #10 08-10-2004, 09:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You may be right, I thought about it a bit more and betting vs checkraising is closer than I thought. The main thing though is that the river action here is extremely rare. Most of the time the two players between you and MP2 will be calling all those flop and turn bets with DRAWS, not made hands, so its unlikely that both or even one will be calling on the river here after all that action. So in that case a river checkraise (and the chance that the river will be checked through is extremely low based on the description in the original post) is much more +EV than betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

With three extra players, even if they were all on draws (which is not necessarily the case since some players see a showdown with any pocket pair or any piece of the board), it is very likely that at least one of them picked up a pair and will not want to fold on the river. Above all, I know MP2 will call a bet but I can't be sure he will bet out when he can check behind closing the action. The extra three players just make the decision that much clearer for me. Heads-up or with one passive caller, I go for the check-raise if I am positive MP2 will bet. Otherwise, I go for the sure thing and get at least one bet in on the river.

SpaceAce