2 hands in the SB with Axo

In both hands here I feel I made the wrong decision on the flop bet. What would you do in both of these hands and why? If I made mistakes in these I want to never repeat them.


Hand 1:

Reads per PT: UTG+2 is LPP, MP1 is a LAG, MP3 and CO are both major fish.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button folds, Hero ?



Hand 2:

Reads per PT: CO and BB are both major fish.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero ?

[TwoShedsJackson]

Hand 1: No point betting out into a huge field anyway, it's most unlikely you're ahead here. You're getting 7:1 on the bet and raise and there's an awful lot of cold calling going on, it's enough to call for five outs I think as if you hit another 7 you'll make a lot extra. If you hit the A you might be in trouble against ATo but will be good a lot of the time. If it's 3 bet and capped behind me I would fold for another two back.

Hand 2: I don't think I'd complete A6o with only two limpers. I check/call the flop, the turn card is going to make a big difference to your chances of winning the hand and the pot is currently too small to start going mad.

[POKhER]

Hand 1:
Preflop is a fold for me.

Fold i think as UTG hasn't acted, but were getting 14:2? Dam, are we good if we hit an ACE? Will UTG reraise? Will Mp1 Cap? We are behind i'm sure and 8.2:1 improving with 4way and 14SB pot.

Ok call this, fold if its capped 2back to you and see what turn brings.



Hand 2.
Preflop fold.
Fold.


edited: Didnt see your preflop.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: No point betting out into a huge field anyway, it's most unlikely you're ahead here. You're getting 7:1 on the bet and raise and there's an awful lot of cold calling going on, it's enough to call for five outs I think as if you hit another 7 you'll make a lot extra. If you hit the A you might be in trouble against ATo but will be good a lot of the time. If it's 3 bet and capped behind me I would fold for another two back.

Hand 2: I don't think I'd complete A6o with only two limpers. I check/call the flop, the turn card is going to make a big difference to your chances of winning the hand and the pot is currently too small to start going mad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Normally I wouldn't complete the SB with A6o and 2 limpers, but I had seen both other players capable of playing literally any 2 cards and figured this may be one time that I can do it. The large majority of the time I would never...

[numeri]

I like hand 2 better than hand 1. I'd prefer a smaller field to complete with a hand like A6o.

Since you called, hand 1 is instamuck on the flop. You're not getting odds to draw, and you are likely drawing.

In hand 2, I think I call here - we're getting close to the odds we need, and we don't know that we're necessarily drawing. Additionally, we have the A of flushes, giving us a back-door flush draw. A raise won't knock out players you want out. Any other A (except AK/A7) is drawing dead to you, flush draws aren't folding, though you might get a gut-straght draw out. They're making a bad call anyway, so I think it's safe to peel and see the turn. I don't mind a fold either, BTW.

[numeri]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think I'd complete A6o with only two limpers.

[/ QUOTE ]
Can you explain why you'd prefer a larger field? I like the smaller field for A6o, but I don't have any mathematical justification for it - just that I feel I'm more likely to have the only A.

[jrz1972]

A lot varied advice in this thread.

Hand 1: Fold preflop. If you're going to play Axo from the SB, don't do it against a big field; you want just a limper or two. Given that you played it, you can call the flop. You're getting 7.5:1 (if BB folds and UTG+2 just calls the raise), and your implied odds give you some extra cover, so a call with your 5-outer is fine.

Hand 2: Converting this preflop is fine and was better than your preflop decision on hand 1. The flop is close because you can't be sure that you don't actually have the best hand right now. If I'm going to play, I'm going to raise. There are a bunch of hands I would like to fold out (middle pair anybody?) and I might as well see how serious CO is about his flop bet. That said, I think you can make a case for peeling (you're *almost* getting the odds you need) and folding (you're not quite getting the odds you need and you certainly aren't calling this down UI).

[teajay]

I'm too tight in the blinds, so I don't usually play these.

Hand 1: I hope you're not thinking about calling?? *Edit: Crap I missed all the cold calls. Getting 7:1 I suppose you should call, but I don't know if you'll be able to call a turn bet UI.

Hand 2: It's a loose call, but since you say they're fish it's likely they're going to call the flop bet too. That will help pad the pot a bit. Fold the turn UI though if you keep getting bet into.

[Taxmanrick]

Both hands are pre-flop folds for me. I might try a steal raise if it's folded to me depending on the BB.

[numeri]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: Converting this preflop is fine and was better than your preflop decision on hand 1. The flop is close because you can't be sure that you don't actually have the best hand right now. If I'm going to play, I'm going to raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
The problem I always get stuck with here is our position. CO isn't folding, even if everyone else is. I get stuck with what to do on the turn when we miss, which we usually will. How do you play the turn if we fold out the other two and the turn is a blank like 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]? Other ideas?