Big pot poker - Page 3

Somekid · #21 08-18-2005, 11:31 AM

I'm going to have to disagree with your comment about hating the "bet, hoping to get raised" line. We have a very vulnerable hand. If we want to win the pot we have to protect it. Checking gives us no chance of hand protection. If we check and villian bets people will have odds to call with almost anything. Even if we could be behind to UTG we want to force people out. I'd rather have my pair of 8s in play heads-up than multiway.

I realize that you still advocate betting. But I don't think you should be frustrated if UTG raises. He probably improved your chances of winning the pot.

DCWildcat · #22 08-18-2005, 11:31 AM

Yes it's true UTG+1 might not raise with overs, but what else should we do? Check/call and give everyone odds to draw to gutshots?

Betting may not get us what we want but is MUCH more likely to help than simply check/calling. Who knows, maybe one of the fish will have paired and might raise.

jrz1972 · #23 08-18-2005, 11:32 AM

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I don't think it's you who should protect the hand, rather the pf raiser who should protect his. So he's gonna raise. The turn will tell you whether you're strong enough or not. Why not figuring that out for less money?

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You want the PF raiser to raise your flop bet. If I could somehow pass $0.50 to the PFR and tell the guy to raise me, I would. I desperately want to get raised immediately so I can force the field to call two cold.

jrz1972 · #24 08-18-2005, 11:35 AM

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I really hate this "bet, hoping to get raised" thing. How many players, even TAG's are going to be raising with UI overs? If we bet, and get raised, yeah, we chase out flush draws, but then we're probably now going HU with an overpair.

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UTG+1 could flash me his AA and I would still bet hoping to get raised.

Rev. Good Will · #25 08-18-2005, 11:35 AM

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I realize that you still advocate betting. But I don't think you should be frustrated if UTG raises. He probably improved your chances of winning the pot.

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Are you raising in villians spot with UI overs no [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]'s? What about if you had a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]? I certainly am not. If villian raises here, we are drawing to 6.5 outs.

edited to recount outs

jrz1972 · #26 08-18-2005, 11:38 AM

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I realize that you still advocate betting. But I don't think you should be frustrated if UTG raises. He probably improved your chances of winning the pot.

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Are you raising in villians spot with UI overs no [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]'s? What about if you had a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]? I certainly am not. If villian raises here, we are drawing to 5 outs.

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Exactly. The pot is big enough that we definitely want to continue with our 5-outer. So we try to clean up those outs by folding out hands that threaten us. Our chances of winning the pot increase.

crownjules · #27 08-18-2005, 11:44 AM

Well I haven't read any posts yet (grunching) so..

Preflop call is fine. I'm betting out this flop. You have TPGK and by betting, you will hopefully induce a raise from UTG which will wipe out the field drawing to overcards to your pair or a weak draw. Of course, this puts you in the situation of wondering does UTG have you beat or not.

On a turn blank (any non-broadway) that is not a spade, I'd bet out again and fold to a raise. If it is a spade, I would call a raise and see the river and fold there UI.

MrWookie47 · #28 08-18-2005, 11:44 AM

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I really hate this "bet, hoping to get raised" thing. How many players, even TAG's are going to be raising with UI overs? If we bet, and get raised, yeah, we chase out flush draws, but then we're probably now going HU with an overpair.

I'm betting though, "hoping to get UTG+1 to fold", although it doubles as betting, "if UTG+1 raises, curse, and hope to catch running 8's"

EDIT - not sure if this is a leak or not, but if raised, my line for the hand if HU and UI, and with not-so-scary overs is C/C, Bet

EDIT2 - PF call is damn awesome

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I mostly like your reasoning, and your c/c - bet a safe (not A, not Q, non-[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]) turn line. However, I'm also going to play the nit. We're not chasing any flush draws away, ever. They're always with you to the end. We can hope to fold gutshots if the PFR raises, and that's about it.

Somekid · #29 08-18-2005, 11:45 AM

There are situations in which we could be behind to UG but still have higher pot equity if he folds out the other four hands. I think Miller talks about this on page 149 of SSH. Although you are in position he advocates raising "even without the best hand"

edit: he says "even without the best hand you want many hands to fold"

crownjules · #30 08-18-2005, 11:48 AM

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Are you raising in villians spot with UI overs no [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]'s? What about if you had a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]? I certainly am not. If villian raises here, we are drawing to 6.5 outs.

edited to recount outs

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I would want to raise here with OCs to clean up those outs, hoping to fold a hand like A5 or K4, and knock out people holding the gutshot straight.