Adjusting to 1/2 (a hand) - Page 4

mmbt0ne · #31 05-30-2005, 03:31 PM

<blockquote>En réponse à:<hr />
A7s, yes I 3-bet. Q7s? No. We're not cleaning up any outs, and it's a pretty thin 3-bet for value. Depending on what the others do, a 3-bet may knock out more than you wanted.

<blockquote>En réponse à:<hr />
Anyone hate 3-betting the flop? No? Ok, 3-bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

We don't care about cleaning up outs, we care about value. You are in position, with 2 aggressors and a 3rd person trapped along for the ride. At least 2 people are calling the 3-bet, and you will be in position to take a free card.

Here are your choices as I see them:
1) Call 2 SB on the flop, and 1 BB on the turn assuming you miss. Your hand isn't disguised at all, which probably isn't a problem at .50/1, but it's something to consider.
2) Put 3 SB in on the flop, pay nothing on the turn if you miss, or bet out when you hit.

If you account for your backdoor straight draws here, even if only 2 people call along on the flop, you are making money with every bet that goes in on the flop.

3-bet the flop.

SlantNGo · #32 05-30-2005, 06:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You are in position, with 2 aggressors and a 3rd person trapped along for the ride.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not the best assumption at 1/2. MP2 is likely out and a 3-bet may even drop BB. If the pot was raised pre-flop, that tends to tie people to the pot a bit more.

[ QUOTE ]
At least 2 people are calling the 3-bet, and you will be in position to take a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another crucial assumption there, although this one is more accurate. I think you will get the free card 60 to 70% of the time.

[ QUOTE ]
Here are your choices as I see them:
1) Call 2 SB on the flop, and 1 BB on the turn assuming you miss. Your hand isn't disguised at all, which probably isn't a problem at .50/1, but it's something to consider.
2) Put 3 SB in on the flop, pay nothing on the turn if you miss, or bet out when you hit.

If you account for your backdoor straight draws here, even if only 2 people call along on the flop, you are making money with every bet that goes in on the flop.

3-bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can guarantee that 2 people will come along with you on the flop, it's a great 3-bet. But you're forcing two people to call 2 cold, which is no problem against a 0.5/1 fish, but a typical 1/2 player is less likely to do so.

The one thing that 3-betting avoids is the turn decision Hero faced here. Give him outs for the overcard and backdoor straight draws, and it's close. I'd 3-bet it if BB and MP3 were loose players.

PuckNPoker · #33 05-30-2005, 10:32 PM

I dont understand this reasoning at all, if you 3 bet and it forces out 2 people, that is a great 3 bet. You've increased your chance of winning the pot with a lesser hand than your flush coming in.

If you 3 bet and they stay in, then you get tremendous value. Either way, win-win.

SlantNGo · #34 05-31-2005, 01:23 PM

I don't believe that is the case at all. How are you increasing your chances of winning the pot with a lesser hand? By spiking your overcard? If you hit a Queen, you'll probably have the best hand anyways. If, however, it was an Ace, those overcard outs may be dirty, so then we want to drive out a higher Ace or worse, something like A6.

[ QUOTE ]
I dont understand this reasoning at all, if you 3 bet and it forces out 2 people, that is a great 3 bet. You've increased your chance of winning the pot with a lesser hand than your flush coming in.

[/ QUOTE ]

PuckNPoker · #35 05-31-2005, 01:58 PM

If you 3 bet the flop and get Ace-x or King-x to fold you've increased your chances of winning, for example if the turn came Ace or King and the river came a Queen. It is much more likely HU from the flop forward that your Queen is good. Or even if someone will fold their 6 or 8 and give you a chance at winning with one pair if they would have made trips of 2 pair by the river.

As much grief as people gave this guy preflop, I think the biggest mistakes (assuming he doesnt always play weak hands like Q7s) he made was postflop. He lost quite a lot of value on the flop, and the turn is debateable (I initially liked it but after thinking about it more I really dont like it, either you make the single spades pay double (and some of those arent even good) or you will get bit in the butt often enough to make just calling a mistake over raising)

Octopus · #36 05-31-2005, 02:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The odds are the odds when comparing the size of the bet to the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

... AND the size of future bets. When you limp you are putting in .5BB, when you complete you are putting in .25BB. Even if the current pot odds are the same, that is an important difference.

Octopus · #37 05-31-2005, 02:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1) I think the pf call would be marginal, except that there is the dead money from the poster in the pot. I considered raising this pf actually to isolate. I recently realized my vpip is around 16 so I've been trying to add a few hands here and there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't hate raising here. I rarely just call when there is a poster in the hand; if I don't feel comfortable raising, then I normally fold. That said calling and folding are both fine too. My default is to fold, but whatever.

PuckNPoker · #38 05-31-2005, 02:47 PM

Yes, it is an important difference when considering implied odds especially. But there is also a difference in position. If you were offered a choice of having the button every hand (yes I know the guy is the CO here) but paying .5bb a hand to play. Or always being in the SB (with someone else always paying the initial part of the blind) and having to pay .25bb a hand which would you take?

Octopus · #39 05-31-2005, 03:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, it is an important difference when considering implied odds especially. But there is also a difference in position. If you were offered a choice of having the button every hand (yes I know the guy is the CO here) but paying .5bb a hand to play. Or always being in the SB (with someone else always paying the initial part of the blind) and having to pay .25bb a hand which would you take?

[/ QUOTE ]

(Pokertraker to the rescue.) I would take the SB, and it is not particularly close. I have historically won about 10BB/100 from the button and lost about 10BB/100 from the SB. Throw in an extra 25BB/100 to play in the small blind it is clearly better.

That said, yes, position is a factor, particularly so with a hand like Q7s. Still, that is a fold in late position and an easy call in the SB (with no raise and a couple limpers).