An Open Challenge

[DVaut1]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone should reconsider their support of any institution they support but don't actively take part in. See how stupid this is? (Clearly you don't, but you can't say I didn't give you a chance).

[/ QUOTE ]

War isn't any other 'institution'. War has serious moral implications that most other 'insitutions' don't.

Regardless, I don't think it's 'stupid' to require people to actually give some thought to what they choose to support - and part of that thought should center around if their support doesn't necessitate active participation. I would say war does.

[ QUOTE ]
I support the need of my village having a police and fire department, but I'm neither a fireman or a policeman. Why? Because that's not what I want to do with my life at this time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I should hope, if your local police department was in dire need of more police officers, you would either volunteer to join or stop claiming what the police is doing is necessary and that you support them.

[ QUOTE ]
Being a soldier is no different. You may think it is, but that's because you want to disparage any war-supporter as a hypocrite and therefore not worth listening to. Your arrogance is unbecoming...

[/ QUOTE ]

If calling war supporters hypocrites for their unwillingness to fight in wars is disparaging people, so be it.

I decided long ago to treat war supporters who are unwilling to fight themselves cum grano salis; how others choose to treat such people is their own business.

[DVaut1]

First things first, I think I (and others) would appreciate it if you found the return key.

Now onto the post...

[ QUOTE ]
If you wish to place the burden of total commitment style support on to one party (in this case those that supported the war) why not be fair and give it to everyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't support a war, you didn't support sending others to die in your stead - so that doesn't sound particularly fair to me.

[ QUOTE ]
If you support environmentalism why arent you chained to a tree in Oregon?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not an environmentalist; I don't know what logging in Oregon is done for, but I assume I use whatever product (paper?) that comes from such logging - so clearly I'm more interested in having paper, etc. than I am in protecting trees/ecosystems/etc.

[ QUOTE ]
If you support peace why arent you in the Peace Corps currently?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't necessarily support peace.

The standard of the Peace Corps is "fighting hunger, disease, poverty, and lack of opportunity." Clearly, since I'm not in the Peace Corps, I'm more than willing to accept some level of hunger, disease, poverty, and lack of opportunity.

If you're trying to demonstrate that I'm a cold, heartless, selfish, and lazy guy, who's well coddled and would rather spend time with his wife, watch baseball, play poker, post on 2+2, etc. than fight the world's problems - it's certainly an accurate characterization and fits me to a T.

[ QUOTE ]
As you can/should obviously notice this becomes quite irrational.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your questions are perfectly rational; I don't think my answers are irrational, and I'd be willing to bet most people are in my boat, in that they're certainly not in favor of poverty, war, disease, hunger, etc. - and wish such pains didn't exist - but clearly, they're not willing to do a damn thing about it. I know I'm not.

[ QUOTE ]
As you can/should obviously notice this becomes quite irrational. If the action in this case is meant to be a litmus test of "true" support... then I ask you personally why you are not over in Iraq with the Red Cross easing the suffering of this war in support of peace(judging by the time you've spent arguing this issue on an internet forum Im going to guess that you are not)

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, I'm not.

If I cared that much about suffering, I'd be over there doing everything I could to prevent it.

Clearly, my will to prevent suffering is non-existant, at best.

[ QUOTE ]
and if you choose to man up and answer this question,

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a completely unrelated comment - but can I 'woman' up and answer this question? What does it mean to 'man' up and answer something? Do women not answer questions? Do men always answer questions?

[ QUOTE ]
now that I have put the burden of action on you, please remember that we're only counting total support according to your logic... no donations or protests work against the same sort of morals test you attempt to impose upon those you are arguing against.

[/ QUOTE ]

Believe me, I've never given a dime to the Red Cross.

[ QUOTE ]
(I also do doubt the Red Cross with turn you away due to them having a sufficient number of volunteers for a war zone [on this of course I must admit Im less sure than the US military turning people away]).

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I hope that right-wingers on this board call out all the hypocritical leftists who claim their undying support for human rights and link them to the Red Cross recruiting website - or Greenpeace, or the United Way, or what have you.

[ QUOTE ]
Also take note of whatever cop out you may use and recognize that if it works for you in this case (even: "I dont want to be in physical danger" others are free to use it)... come on you chickenhippy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, unrelated, but I think 'chickenhippy' is rather humorous and is probably underused.


[ QUOTE ]
-An additional issue in this case is the volunteer nature of the armed forces at present. No individual is being taken unwillingly into the military system (in some sense there is a backdoor draft.. stop loss, etc which retains some still in service). However individuals signing up for the armed forces are making the (hopefully) well thought out decision that it is the choice for them. Every soldier from reservist to careerist ought to recognize the nature of US deployments post 9/11 and that today, and throughout American history, an individual soldiers support of an individual war only matters in so far as their vote as a citizen (you accept a job and the responsibility [also please note accept... the burdens of morality come into play in a forced draft which is why Ill admit stop loss scares me] that you may well be posted in harms way in a dangerous, unpopular, and perhaps not well thought out conflict. If you feel an obligation to serve or if the reservist money is just "too good for 2 weekends a a month etc etc" you sign up... if not... you stay home. I respect them for putting their lives on the line. I also wish that every war they would ever fight (though even better I wish they wouldnt have to fight) would be a "good war" with crystal clear rights and wrongs, motives, widespread popular support while doing something actually tangibly defending the homeland and making the world a better place. However, whether war or peace time, and though in my mind in a job atleast on par in terms of courage and risk on par with policeman and firefighters, military service is... like those jobs... an individuals choice at present (the big reason why recruiter misrepresentation and sheer lying is a huge evil) and just as the two other occupations mentioned have little to no control over where they wish to risk their lives and for what specifically (firefighters have died rescuing house pets :-/) it is a job they choose to assume. Until the situation totally changes, ie until and unless there is a draft, it's a reach that because one supporter of the war sits here in the states another man is forcibly conscripted to service to take his place (this I think is the part of the core of your arguement... Im sure there are countless soliders there [Iraq} against the war, I just hope that after their time is over they still feel their choice to join and accept risk is a good one) Yes, I feel bad for a mother/family who had a family member die over there... I wish it never happened... but their loved one willfully joined the service and in doing so assumed the implied risk that everyone in a uniform takes in the sense that they may someday be called upon to fight a nasty war in a nasty place under some nasty pretenses (or perhaps a conflict they personally do not support).

[/ QUOTE ]

I found this rather hard to understand, most because of the lack of spacing, which made it difficult to read...

but yes, military service is obviously voluntary. But I have a hard time believing most, if not all soldiers, would rather be home and would prefer not to be in harm's way.

But, as you mentioned - the army needs recruits. The soldiers there apparently need support - not just yellow ribbons, but manpower.

If the military needs manpower, I'm wondering what war supporters are doing here at home - they claim the war is necessary, they support the troops there, etc. If that's all true, back up what you claim - enlist and stand alongside them. I think that's the only option which constitutes true 'support'.

[ QUOTE ]
Addition: Me personally... assuming the above is all read (laf) individuals may ask why I myself, a Republican though not a hardcore Bushite (McCain 2008), and of service age, am not in the Armed Forces. The answer is simple; though after 9/11 I intended to enlist and was given acceptance into West Point I could sadly not attend due to medical concerns (I think theres another post on here by me explaining what specifically). I can of course prove this. I wished to enlist because my family has maintained a long tradition of public service (atleast one individual in every major conflict since the war of 1812 with the sole exception of my father, Vietnam,... a hippy who spent more than a few nights in jail due to protesting and then joined the peace corps to back up what he believed in) I felt it was my time to step up... since that area was denied to me Im just enjoying college while pondering another way to pay for what I have now in terms of service to my country (hope the state dept still needs Chinese interp skills when I graduate :-)). I supported and still support the war in Iraq and our troops there. If there was any way I would be allowed to serve currently I would indeed join.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I've said a few times, it's of no interest to me why some posters here decide not to go.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
War isn't any other 'institution'. War has serious moral implications that most other 'insitutions' don't.

[/ QUOTE ]
But many do. And that's the point.

[ QUOTE ]
Regardless, I don't think it's 'stupid' to require people to actually give some thought to what they choose to support - and part of that thought should center around if their support doesn't necessitate active participation. I would say war does.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with the first sentence. The second is your opinion, which many do not share.

[ QUOTE ]
I should hope, if your local police department was in dire need of more police officers, you would either volunteer to join or stop claiming what the police is doing is necessary and that you support them.

[/ QUOTE ]
And now we're back to my post about the military's never-ending need for recruits. The military is not in some "dire need" for more soldiers to go to Iraq. We can argue over whether the number of troops in Iraq is an adequate number (and I might be inclined to agree that it may not be), but that isn't indicative or symptoms of an overall recruit shortage.

[ QUOTE ]
If calling war supporters hypocrites for their unwillingness to fight in wars is disparaging people, so be it.

I decided long ago to treat war supporters who are unwilling to fight themselves cum grano salis; how others choose to treat such people is their own business.

[/ QUOTE ]
1) It is
2) The feeling is (most likely) mutual.

[jaxmike]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank God there are people to protect you from yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually don't really understand this part. Is someone actively protecting me...from myself? I don't get it, honestly.

[/ QUOTE ]

And that is the problem.

[DVaut1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thank God there are people to protect you from yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]
I actually don't really understand this part. Is someone actively protecting me...from myself? I don't get it, honestly.

[/ QUOTE ]
And that is the problem.


[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain.

[jaxmike]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thank God there are people to protect you from yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]
I actually don't really understand this part. Is someone actively protecting me...from myself? I don't get it, honestly.

[/ QUOTE ]
And that is the problem.


[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's the point? You will only disagree.

[DVaut1]

[ QUOTE ]
What's the point? You will only disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just looking for some explanation for how it's possible, theoretically, that someone is protecting 'me from myself'.

It sounds as if it's just some crap you thought sounded cute and might otherwise masquerade as something philosophical, reflective, and meaningful if people who knew better (that is, people who know English) weren’t paying attention.

[jaxmike]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What's the point? You will only disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just looking for some explanation for how it's possible, theoretically, that someone is protecting 'me from myself'.

It sounds as if it's just some crap you thought sounded cute and might otherwise masquerade as something philosophical, reflective, and meaningful if people who knew better (that is, people who know English) weren’t paying attention.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are incapable of understanding what I am going to write. Not because you are not intelligent enough, but because you will refuse to see the truth in my words.

I believe that you are a coward. I believe that you do not have the stomach to fight a war for ANY reason. I believe that you would give up all your rights as an individual to avoid making tough decisions or fighting to keep your rights. I believe that you would allow the government to make your decisions for you so that you don't have to, then believe that the government is doing a good thing because you no longer have to make decisions for yourself. I may be way off base, but you come off like that to me.

[DVaut1]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that you are a coward.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay. What does this have to do with protecting 'me from myself'?

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that you do not have the stomach to fight a war for ANY reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay. What does this have to do with protecting 'me from myself'?

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that you would give up all your rights as an individual to avoid making tough decisions or fighting to keep your rights.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay. What does this have to do with protecting 'me from myself'?

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that you would allow the government to make your decisions for you so that you don't have to, then believe that the government is doing a good thing because you no longer have to make decisions for yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay. What does this have to do with protecting 'me from myself'?

[ QUOTE ]
I may be way off base, but you come off like that to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay. What does this have to do with protecting 'me from myself'?

[jaxmike]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I believe that you are a coward.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay. What does this have to do with protecting 'me from myself'?

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that you do not have the stomach to fight a war for ANY reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay. What does this have to do with protecting 'me from myself'?

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that you would give up all your rights as an individual to avoid making tough decisions or fighting to keep your rights.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay. What does this have to do with protecting 'me from myself'?

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that you would allow the government to make your decisions for you so that you don't have to, then believe that the government is doing a good thing because you no longer have to make decisions for yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay. What does this have to do with protecting 'me from myself'?

[ QUOTE ]
I may be way off base, but you come off like that to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay. What does this have to do with protecting 'me from myself'?

[/ QUOTE ]

I told you that you wouldn't understand. I thought it was just because of your ideology, but it might be because you cannot conceptually grasp what I am writing. Let me make it as simple as possible. In the end, I believe you would give up all of yours and others rights and let some higher authority make all your decisions for you. I believe you would make yourself a slave if you could.

Do you understand now?