when to limp late in tournament?

[technologic]

was watching a friend play a MTT and he was in late stages in the money, around 70 ppl left in a 1200 tournament, and i saw him limp a couple times in MP when blinds were 500/1000 with a limper in front, and he had around 15k in his stack.

i was thinking that limping in these stages is generally not a good idea, and was wondering if there were situations that would justify limping when blinds are this high relative to your stack.

have a specific hand in mind, but will tell of it after i get a feel of what people think.

If there is a limper in front, and I am fairly sure the pot will not get raised, I will limp behind with small pocket pairs and suited connectors. However, I will very rarely limp if I am the first to enter a pot when the blinds get this big.

[technologic]

i guess i should be more specific

super tuesday, 150+12 buy in at party, 1220 entrants.
top 140 place, tourney being top heavyish in payout.

around 60-70 left in the tournament, hero has 15k in his stack blinds are 500/1000. average stack around 30k or so. hero is in MP with 66. given that a loose, poor player has limped in front, should hero limp with his hand? raise all in? or fold.

[stevepa]

meh, I would probably push. I don't hate limping at a passive table, but at this point in the tournament he's probably not at a passive table.

Steve

[technologic]

right, my buddy's reasoning was that he was risking less than 10% of his stack for a chance to double through, or a chance to bet out and win a decent sized pot on the flop, but i believe that the propensity for someone to raise behind pf heavily outweighs his ability to play for value on this hand

[rannerboy]

I fold 66 here because:

1. The risk of someone raising behind you is very big.
2. You will rarely get the implied odds you need to flop a set.
3. Hero's stack is a little too big to push with 66 here I think.

For example, say a player behind you raises to 3k and the limper in front of you calls. In this case it will only cost you 2k more to call a pot of 8.5k, so you'll probably make that call. Most likely you won't hit your set and will have to fold to any bet, leaving you at 12k instead of 15k.

If you do hit your set, you cant make a really big score anyway since your stack is rather short. This means you probably won't make up for all those times when you don't hit your set.

Save the bet instead. Every single chip is important as your stack size shrinks.

[betgo]

I like limping behind in this situation. Aside from flopping a set, you have a good chance of having position a a 4-way limped pot. If another limper comes in, you have good pot odds and implied odds. However, if someone raises, you may have to fold.

In general, I like to open limp with this stack size. If you raise, you set yourself up for a reraise. People don't know what to do with a limp. If they automatically raise, they set themselves up for a limpraise, which you can try with hands somewhat weaker than KK. People may take it the other way and be afraid you are trapping. If no one else plays, you have position and initiative versus the blinds.

There is a lot of limping early in the tournament by bad players and with people playing speculative hands with deep money. People assume limping is bad later on, which is one reason I like to do it, either open limping or limping behind. Limping complicates play for everyone and increases the edge of a better player.

I can see an argument for limping or folding. In no way do I see an argument for a push. Too many people left to act, including the original limper. Remember everyone else has their eye on the prize also and when all fold to original limper, he may just look you up with pocket 8's, hoping he is in a race with AK.

[rbenuck4]

Hi. I was the hero in this hand. I completely agree with your arguments betgo. I think my stack is too large to push, and becuase the original limper is so crazy loose, I don't want a coin flip with him because I can get my money in the middle much better than that. I also can't justify folding 6's when no pressure has been put in preflop.

By limping, I am probably getting position on 3 to 4 players, meaning that even if I don't hit a set, there's still a good chance of me picking up this pot postflop. Also, in the case where I don't flop a set and its checket to me, I can safely bet out 3K and fold if any pressure is put on me. After folding, I will still have 11K so I won't be crippled.

In the case where I do flop a set, I think there is a good chance of me doubling up becasue of the loose player UTG. I think I can give a free card if it is checked to me, even if there might be a draw on board, becuase I'll risk that late in a tournament for a better shot at doubling up. And if its bet to me, they might be committed when I push (I especially don't expect UTG laying anything down in this situation).

[rbenuck4]

hey tech. I think this is the only argument for folding instead of calling. I agree that this is a major problem with limping here. However, if it does get raised, I have an easy fold, and I risked less than 10% of my stack. however, the chance of me having position in a multiway pot with a fun multiway hand this late in a tournament is too great to pass up. No way am I pushing with that crazy loose guy up front. I can see someone making the argument for folding, but I just couldn't let up this opportunity.