not knowing your opponent, a 5/5 PLH hand

[ArtVandelay]

5/5 PLH. The relevant player in this hand literally just sat down, and I've never played with him before. He bought in for 600 and is down to 590 now after paying two blinds. I have him covered.

Folded to this guy on the button and he opens for 20. SB drops and I call in the BB with T6s. Although you are welcome to flame at me for this call, it's by far the least interesting part of the hand.

The flop comes 952 all in my suit. I lead 45. Again this decision is debatable, but it's not the key part of the hand. My opponent now reraises pot, making it 180 to go, and he has 390 left in his stack. I would feel much more comfortable here against a player I knew, but I feel completely naked againts an unknown player. What's the right play??? My thoughts and results later.

[ArtVandelay]

I won't post my thoughts or results yet, but I just want to say that I'm more upset about this hand than I have been about any poker decision in probably a year. This is certainly not the biggest pot I've been in, but I just feel sick to my stomach about the line of play I choose.

[Robk]

I would push in. If there's anything to debate here, why call with T6s? Were you hoping for the straight flush before you commit any chips?

[MrGo]

The question you need to ask yourself is:

With a T6s, what is the type of flop I want? Obviously TT6 would be nice. But you flopped a flush...why would you play this hand then fold it when you flopped a flush when the enemy raised?

I feel this is an automatic re-raise and put him all in.

[MrGo]

[ QUOTE ]
I would push in. If there's anything to debate here, why call with T6s? Were you hoping for the straight flush before you commit any chips?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Why play T6s if you're afraid of a bigger flush on the flop? Have to play this.

[Guy McSucker]

Flopping a flush is rare. Given that you have flopped a flush, the chances of your only opponent having done the same are small. Much more likely is that he has a single card of the flush suit. Raise all-in and make him pay to outdraw you.

No?

Guy.

[Gus]

I'm probably wrong here, but I think I would just call... If you bet the max again, he will call you if he's got you beat, and will probably call you as well if he's drawing for the nut flush (I think he now almost got correct odds for that as long as he's all-in on the flop).

so my plan would be:

_ call his flop raise
_ bet pot on the turn if a non-spade hits (then it's going to be really tough, and wrong, for him to call with a flush draw)
_ check (and probably fold to a bet) if a spade hits the turn.

Basically, you want him to make big mistakes... he wouldnt be a big one for him to call your reraise on the flop, but it would be a major one to call your turn bet.

If you both have the flush... you end-up all-in whatever you do anyway. If a spade hits on the turn you probably save some money if you fold (vs being all-in on the flop)

[Guy McSucker]

you want him to make big mistakes... he wouldnt be a big one for him to call your reraise on the flop, but it would be a major one to call your turn bet.

I buy this, but I think it's a big enough error to call with one card of the flush suit. He's drawing to 7 outs, which comes up only 29% of the time. He'll be getting 2-1 on the all-in call. It's about -$45 in EV to call.

Of course it's debatable, but I think this mistake is more likely to be made than the much bigger mistake of calling all-in on fourth street. Also if you just call and the fourth flush card does come, you might be bluffed out if he doesn't have the big flush card.

Also, he might not have the bigger flush draw - he might have a set. He does have odds to call the reraise in this case. But if you don't reraise and just call, then are you going to fear all the flush cards and all the pair cards? There are 17 of them. I don't like the idea of just calling to save money, I don't think, but I am confusing myself now.

Oh I don't know. I'm really keen to hear what Art did that made him so upset, and why.

Guy.

[crockpot]

don't forget that when a scary board comes up like this, your opponent knows that you might make a play for the pot, so his raise might just be an attempt to push you off any hand but a set or flush that you might be betting. (or maybe A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9)

since your opponent is making a significant EV error by calling with any hand but a set or bigger flush, i think you may as well push him in now to avoid guessing which card beats you. if you don't feel comfortable doing that, don't play T6s next time.

[ArtVandelay]

I know this sounds funny coming from someone who always advocates betting/raising exactly the pot, but I believe very strongly that the correct play is to raise exactly 150 more. Certainly I'm not thinking about laying down. If he has a better flush then good for him, he gets to double through. I also dislike calling because I'm out of position against an unknown player, and as Guy mentioned there are 17 cards I can see on the turn that put me in a tough spot. Re-raising all-in is sort of a whatever play; you flopped a flush, so good for you, and by pushing maybe you'll get your opponent to pay you off with an overpair plus flush draw or a set or something.

But I think the really creative play, and the correct one, is the following. By pushing you make it hard for him to make a mistake. A better play would be to deny him the chance to make a good decision. So, pretend from his perspective he has the nut flush draw and your two cards are random. Raise to give him exact odds to call assuming he stacks you when he makes the flush and has to fold when he misses. After calling his raise, pot plus his stack (which is smaller than mine) is 405+390 = 795. He will make the flush on the turn 9 times in 47 (remember, we are pretending he assumes nothing about my cards... a small reraise could be a flush or a set or two pair). So if I raise 152.2, rounded to 150 because you must be a multiple of 5, he is unable to make a good decision, which game theory says is optimal (make your opponent indifferent). And the odds are almost identical for when he has a set. Furthermore, in the situations where he has two pair instead of a flush draw or a set, he is more likely to play when I raise 150 rather than 400. Additionally, because I am including another 390 from my stack when he makes the flush, it is consistent to get stacked anyway when the fourth flush card comes.

This is also part of a general thing I've learned in big bet... if you are going to put the money in anyway, arrange the betting to maximize the range of hands your opponent will put all his money in with.

As to why I'm pissed... I came up with this play after I left the table, and I really think it's one of the more creative big bet plays I've ever thought of. I had the idea at the table of raising a small amount to give him exact odds, but I forgot that I could include his stack for implied. I was irrationally afriad of making a bad decision on the turn, and this caused me to abandon what I knew was a good potential line of play. Blinded by my fear I did the brain-dead play of simply pushing every chip in, and my opponent folded, later claiming to have flopped two pair.

ARGH!