Someone threw me curveball

I was recently in the tightest poker game I think i've ever played in. It was 1/2 limit hold 'em, where the play is usually pleasantly loose. I've played online 2/4 and live 3/6 before, but this table was tighter than any i've ever seen. Just to give you an idea, the average pot was hovering around $5-6, at one point dropping to $4.60. After about 45 minutes I realized how unprofitable the play here would be, but decided to stick around anyways for good practice. The players were all fairly experienced, so I felt like it was a good preview of tighter 3/6 or 5/10 tables (if I ever make it that far).

For the hand in question, I was on the SB with A10. It came to me unraised with 4 other players in the hand. Sensing weakness I decided to raise, because I had been projecting a very tight image the last hour (folding to blind steals, playing few hands). Everyone called as I expected. The flop came rainbow undercards, and I fired according to the plan. Luckily everyone folded but one guy in late position, who I had mentally noted as a solid player. So I figured him for overcards too, but no better than mine. The turn came a 6, a brick and useless card for the board, so I fired again. I felt like he should put me on a high PP at this point, so I was a little surprised when he just called me.

The river brought a 2, another useless undercard. There was no flush, or obvioius straight showing, so I greedily bet the river. He called and turned over 65 offsuit.

My immediate reaction was pretty predictable, although after about 10 seconds of thinking about it seemed like just a great play to mix in, so I congradulated the guy. It wasn't until a little later that I started thinking about the outs he had off the flop (no straight draw), and my outs to catch and beat him on the river. Understandably, he initially called only 1 bet pre-flop almost assured that the blinds wouldn't raise, and my raise getting 9/1 on his money.

The thing is, I see that this guy worked a tricky play like that to success, but I can't imagine any situation where I could expect to consistently make +EV on a hand like that.

Its not tricky to make an absolutely terrible call in a multiway pot

He should fold preflop, he should fold the flop. 56o is absolute garbage and is certainly not worth playing, even limping from the button.

I don't like your line. Feel free to disagree and explain to me why I am wrong.

1) Raising pre-flop with AT, out of position, against 4 limpers, in a game where your opponents will play 65 is -EV.

2) The flop bet is debatable. In my opinion, semi-bluffing on the flop is not a profitable play. I would fold the flop.

It's unlikely that all four players missed the flop and will fold to your continuation bet, especially since one of your opponents appears to be a calling station.

If you pair the turn, you could very well be subject to reverse domination.

You do not have 6 full outs on the flop. If overcards are counted as 1/2 outs, you would have only 3 outs, and insufficient odds to continue on the flop.

3) You place too much emphasis on your table image. The play seems to be based entirely on your table image.

The limpers are not going to fold pre-flop because of your table image. They are going to call your raise, since they are getting the correct odds.

At low limits, players rarely fold the flop if they have any piece of the board. They may also have noticed that the flop was all small cards, and therefore that you probably missed.

An opponent willing to play 65 is probably not paying close attention to your table image.

This thread would get more replies if it was moved from Poker Theory to Micro-Limit, where it belongs.

In my defense, I didn't expect anyone to fold pre-flop. And the guy who called me was the last guy at the table i'd expect to be a calling station. Maybe my read on him was wrong however, because when I left the table he was down to $10

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You do not have 6 full outs on the flop. If overcards are counted as 1/2 outs, you would have only 3 outs, and insufficient odds to continue on the flop.


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First off, I simply meant I had 6 outs on the river even after he hit the 6 on the turn. But what are these 1/2 outs you speak of? I've never heard of that perspective, can you explain?

[Xhad]

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1) Raising pre-flop with AT, out of position, against 4 limpers, in a game where your opponents will play 65 is -EV.

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Actually if you're going to build a pot with ATo a loose game is the game to do it in. Better than in a tight game where someone is sure to have a hand at least as good as yours.

EDIT: Not that I'm saying you should ever want a big pot with this hand...I'm just saying supposing you did, it should be in the game with calling stations and not weak-tights or TAGs who may have limped in with AJo or tried for a limp-reraise with a monster.

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But what are these 1/2 outs you speak of? I've never heard of that perspective, can you explain?

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Cards that improve your hand but do not give you the nuts are "partial outs".

You must account for partial outs when you are counting. If you count [your cards] for full value, you will overplay your hand and call too often. If you discount them entirely, you will undervalue your hand and fold too much. *

You could very well pair the Ace or Ten and still lose the hand. Since pairing your Ace or your Ten does not give you the nuts, you must count the 3 remaining Aces and the 3 remaining Tens as partial outs.

You certainly have less then 6 outs. I may have gotten carried away by counting your overcards as only 1/2 outs. 4 outs would perhaps be more accurate.

Continuing after the flop would then be a close call. I would still fold against 4 opponents, but I could be wrong.

*SSHE

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1) Raising pre-flop with AT, out of position, against 4 limpers, in a game where your opponents will play 65 is -EV.

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Actually if you're going to build a pot with ATo a loose game is the game to do it in. Better than in a tight game where someone is sure to have a hand at least as good as yours.

EDIT: Not that I'm saying you should ever want a big pot with this hand...I'm just saying supposing you did, it should be in the game with calling stations and not weak-tights or TAGs who may have limped in with AJo or tried for a limp-reraise with a monster.

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You're right. AT does plays better against loose opponents.
I was clumsily trying to emphasize with the 65 comment that he had no fold equity with the limpers.

I should have simply written.

1) Raising pre-flop with AT, out of position, against 4 limpers is -EV.

We all agree that building a big pot with AT is a bad idea. Right? ATs, on the other hand...