Frustration with 3-6-12 - Move Up? - ?s about Clark's Thread

[bvaughn]

After another losing session at the Grand in Kinder playing 3-6-12, I am pretty frustrated with my game and with the game in general. I am pretty new to poker being that I was introduced to hold 'em about 2 years ago, but I didn't start trying to really learn hold 'em (by studying books, reading websites, etc.) until nearly a year ago. I am by far an expert, but when I play I can recognize my mistakes and the many mistakes of others (at least what I think are mistakes, and I may be wrong).

My results in "live" poker in the 3-6-12 structure are 129 hours, $286 up. This game is a $1, $3 blind game, 10% rake to max $4 with $1 jackpot drop. I realize that 129 hours is definitely not enough for an accurate statistical picture, but enough for me to realize that I am basically a break-even player at this 3-6-12 structure. My frustration comes from the fact that I have posted losing sessions for 7 of my last 8 sessions.

As I am playing, I am always the tightest player at the table (by far usually), and I am one of the only players at the table who will raise preflop with hands other than AA or KK. I do adjust when I raise according to position and # of players in the pot...for example, I don't raise with AQo in late position with 5-6 players already in, although I would raise with AQs in the same situation. I would raise AQo first in from early position to limit the field, although a preflop raise seems to attracts the gamblers to the pot because they know it will be a big pot.

As I sit and fold hand after hand preflop, I observe who can play and who seems to play poorly (which is nearly everyone). Hand after hand is won by hands like 72s (from early position cold-calling a raise), 10/4o (from middle position cold-calling a raise), and lots of "any two suited" hands making baby flushes and one card straights.

Here is one example from last night: I open raise UTG with A [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] A [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] . UTG+1 reraises to $9. This is very good because $9 might actually run some people off. SB calls $8 as I am announcing I am capping it at $12. BB folds. I cap, UTG+1 calls, SB calls. I could've turned my cards face up preflop, and I am positive the action would have been the same. Flop comes K high rainbow, SB bets, I raise, UTG+1 folds, SB calls. Turn is another K. SB checks, I bet $6, SB calls. River is a rag, SB checks, I bet $12(should've checked behind), SB calls and shows K9o for the turned set of Kings. I don't question his play post flop (except he should've check-raised me on the turn or the river), but calling $8 from the SB with K9o is questionable, IMO. His logic was that K9o could make a straight, and if it was K8o he would not have called. I'm supposed to love these kinds of jokers in my game, right? Sometimes, I just can't beat the cards.

Most of the "regulars" see 60-80% of the flops, raised or not...most pots are contested 6-7 ways preflop and 2-4 ways at showdown. By most standards, this sounds like a very juicy game with tons of very loose, passive, calling station type players...this should be beatable, right? The problem I seem to be having is that I must win a large percentage of the few hands I play to post a win, and because of the large # of players contesting each pot, you have to have a fairly big hand to win the pot...top pair usually just doesn't cut it.

So in my frustration, I'm am trying to figure out ways to either fix my game or possibly move up to 10-20 which is spread on Saturdays. They sometimes, very rarely, spread 6-12 which would be a more preferable limit for me at this time, but it is such a rare occurence that I might have to go straight to 10-20. I have a substantial bonus check coming in the next week or two, and I was thinking of taking part of it and "taking my shot". But, shouldn't I first be beating the 3-6-12 game first to consider moving up to 10-20?

Here's my logic, however flawed it may be. I have been fairly successful online at Paradise up to $2/$4, which plays much tighter and much more aggressive than the 3-6-12 live game. I have adapted my game to be successful at 2/4 online, but I can't say that I am "killing it" yet. I can usually put people on hands based strictly on betting actions, and my intuition usually proves correct. At 3-6-12, where people play nearly any two cards, I never know precisely where I am at because I have a hard time putting others on hands...also, my opponents passivity at 3-6-12 makes it even harder. Someone is just as likely to check-call an Ace-high straight as they are bottom pair. Along with online poker, I recently made a trip to Vegas and successfully played 4-8 at Bellagio and 6-12 at Mirage. I returned a winner after 3 sessions in Vegas playing in a tigher, more aggressive game. Obviously, 3 sessions is not much to analyze, but the cards were not exactly running over me. I truly felt like I was playing good poker and beating my opponents. I was comfortable at the table, and having a lot of fun. I am thinking that the 10-20 game in Louisiana will tend to play more like the low-limit online games and the low-limit Vegas games. If I was going to take a shot after my bonus check comes in, how much money should I take for a 6-10 hour Saturday session at 10-20?

Lastly, Clarkmeister's thread about the Monte Carlo game got me to thinking that some of these guys who have been playing 3-6-12 for years are playing closer to correct for this limit structure than I am. Since the initial bet preflop and flop is 1/4 of a big blind (although the river can be 6 or 12), that I should be seeing A LOT more flops that I am seeing. I already play looser than I do online, but I still think I might be too tight. I do think that most of the players play very poorly post-flop as I see many bottom-pair, middle-pair call downs at the river. So, if I think I can make better decisions post-flop than my opponents, I should really loosen up, right? How low can I go in early position if I think that the chance of getting raised is 10%? How low can I go in late position with no raise and a 1-5% chance of being raised from the blinds? I am guessing that in late position, I can play nearly any two suited than can make a straight - i.e. 96s, 47s, 10/6s - and any two medium or better unsuited connectors - 56o or better? Early, I might limit my plays to medium suited connectors and 9/10o or better? I realize that my variance will increase significantly, and it is already pretty high with my best win being $392/3.5 hours and my biggest loss being -$143/3.5 hours.

I welcome any advice on moving up to 10-20 and taking a shot, as well as any advice on loosening way up on the 3-6-12 game. I apologize that this is so long.

[FletchJr.]

I'm not sure if your bragging or complaining. I only had time to read part of your post but sounds to me like your defenitely going to be a long time winner. You're playing with clowns, have fun, don't let the bad beats hurt your future decisions and play your number one game. You'll eventually take the money.

[Ed Miller]

I realize that 129 hours is definitely not enough for an accurate statistical picture, but enough for me to realize that I am basically a break-even player at this 3-6-12 structure.

129 hours is not enough to draw any meaningful conclusions about your win rate. I would bet that the 95% confidence level for your win rate is still +-$10 at least.

I open raise UTG with AA. UTG+1 reraises to $9. This is very good because $9 might actually run some people off.

With AA, you want everyone at the table to call you, even with the big bet on the river (though I think the big bet on the river does moderately devalue AA). You are playing scared. Why are you scared of people with trashy hands calling your once-every-twelve-hours-monster?

Your idea of moving up to have an easier time beating the game is not a new one... but it is a dubious one. Higher limits mean better players. Better players are harder to beat.

Also, it sounds to me that you aren't correctly adjusting your play for the big bet on the river (though you alluded to it when you referred to Clarkmeister's post). In a structure with a big bet on the river, implied odds hands increase in value, and big offsuit cards go down in value (which is one reason I dislike the structure). Also realize that the big bet on the river allows for more leverage when bluffing... you should be calling on the end relatively less often with "bluff-catching" strength hands... and you should be exploiting the extra leverage by bluffing more when you sense that your opponent is weak. If your opponents do indeed often call a big bet on the end with second or third pair, then they are making a large mistake in this structure, and you should exploit it. Value betting on the river against them will be very profitable. Against players that play correctly for the structure, though, you will need to value bet fewer hands than you would in a traditional structure. That is because they will be folding many of their worst hands that they might call with for half the price. Slowplaying is also much more important in this structure... and it will often be correct to slowplay hands to the river that you would not consider slowplaying in a traditional structure.

The most important adjustment, though, is probably with your starting cards. Because implied odds hands increase in value, you should be playing very loosely if you can get in for $3 preflop (especially from later positions). You also need to make sure that you are constantly raising your big suited cards preflop... force your loose-playing opponents to pay double so their loose calls become incorrect again.

To be honest, it sounds like you just don't have enough experience. If the 6-12 and 10-20 games don't have a big bet on the river, then you might want to buck conventional wisdom and actually move up. The big bet on the river by-and-large forgives many of the mistakes that poor players make. But you should be able to beat the 3-6-12 game... and if you can't, then it implies something about your play. There is no such thing as, "the players play so poorly that the game is unbeatable." People who say stuff like this truly don't understand the game.

[David Ottosen]

I also loathe the 3-6-12 structure, having played under it for an extended period.

However, the structure isn't your problem here, you are sitting in a "producer" game; a game in which you must produce hands to win pots. All you can do in a game like this is keep telling yourself that you are mathematically destined to have the best hand 1 time in 10, and to ensure that you get the maximum value on that 1, while losing the least on the other 9.

Really in a game like this, I'd probably not be raising AQo in EP since it doesn't sound like it will limit the field. I'd be more likely to limp on the button with 87s than AQo. Start getting more interested in the 55's and A8s type hands, and less interested in the AKo's. If you want to practice this kind of thing, try dropping back to .5-1 online and see if you can beat it.

As for moving up, you can do it if you want to. Just remember that in a tighter more aggressive game, you're going to have to win a much higher percentage of pots that you enter, and don't assume that just because you're playing with "good" players, they won't put some hurtful beats on you with janky hands. Results on paradise or a short trip to Vegas are ok, but remember that the players are not as cognizant of who you are and how you play in a short series of sessions (or online). If you move up to a game with good players and sit there regularly, your tendencies will become known quickly, and you will find the game progressively harder to beat.

[Clarkmeister]

It is a poor structure. At least in the 4-8 with 1&2 blind structure you can protect your hand with a raise to $6 preflop and really crush the drawing hands.

A true story for you:

Sunset station here in town spreads a 3-6-9 game. They also have a 4-8 half kill. Both games have full blinds.

During the weekdays, they only spread the 3-6-9. A friend once asked the manager why that is. She responded "I have to protect my regulars from players like you". Translation: the structure helps the fish. A 3-6-12 structure is even worse. Quite frankly, I wouldn't play in it if I had other options available.

If you must play in it, keep being aggressive preflop with your big card hands. Keep raising your AK's, AQ's, AJ's, KQ's, and TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA hands. In LMP and beyond though you must see more flops, especially if your opponents play poorly postflop. You can consider coldcalling raises with pocket pairs preflop if the pot will be 4-5 handed. Be more aggressive with your button raises as well. 3 limpers to you on the button/cutoff with A9s, jack it up. KTs, jack it up. Take those big suited broadway cards and build a nice big chasing type pot for them.

[Nottom]

I agree that with that limit structure, you can play more hands, but I think 10/6s has to be too low.

My thinking would be that from LP you can play any pair, any two suited above 9, suited 2 gappers down to about J8, 1 gappers down to 97, any suited connector down to 45 unsuited 1 gappers down to about T8, and unsuited connectors down to about 78 or so. Any suited Ace, and most suited Kings. You can probably add a few "big" unsuited 2 gappers like Q9 on occasion as well if you feel you can out play your opponents post-flop.

I would think this will allow you to see more pots, and still be playing better hands than some of the trash your opponents are throwing around. Basically you want hands that can turn into the nuts, which is why 3 gappers are just trouble even in a game like this.

Granted, I am probablt talking out of my ass here so I would just listen to ClarkM instead. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

[bvaughn]

I am most certainly not bragging. I just wanted to get as much information about my results as possible so I can get the best advice. There might be some complaining due to my frustration level. My mindset needs to change when I play this game, which is the only live structure available 80% of the time.

[bvaughn]

Thanks for the advice majorkong and David!

I have been very gunshy about bluffing on the river with the $12 big bet because it seems to get called down so many times. I need to pick my spots better, which would require more playing experience. For example, the other night I had a perfect opportunity to bluff on the river and I missed it...I raised preflop with KQs, bet the flop with flush draw, bet the turn heads-up, and then checked the river after being checked to with the flush not coming in thinking I would be betting a hand that would only be called by a better hand (any pair). So my opponent turns over A8o and was drawing for a gutshot and takes the pot with Ace high. I am positive that he would have folded for $12...missed opportunity.

[bvaughn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
During the weekdays, they only spread the 3-6-9. A friend once asked the manager why that is. She responded "I have to protect my regulars from players like you". Translation: the structure helps the fish. A 3-6-12 structure is even worse. Quite frankly, I wouldn't play in it if I had other options available.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting concept - protecting the regulars with a mistake forgiving structure. Makes sense from the business sense, especially with a large rake and a jackpot to draw the "regulars" in. I asked the room manager the other night if they would see if there was any interest in 6-12, but they said that they only spread other games on Saturdays. I think I'll be going on Saturdays from now on to see different options.

Most of the folks playing are retired people who are just passing time, kinda like playing dominoes or something. 3-6-12 is the perfect spread for them, but I should still be able to beat it with more consistency...experience + knowledge + practice will pay off.

[bvaughn]

Thanks for the advice nottom.