T9s on button facing three limpers and a raiser

pokernicus · #1 10-24-2005, 04:20 PM

I was reading through Brier and Ciaffone's Middle Limit Hold'em book, and they pose the following question in their pre-flop chapter.

Suppose you have Td9d on the button. Three people limp and the cutoff raises. What do you do?

They suggest that one fold in this situation. I figured this to be the safe play to make. But as I thought about it some more, I began to wonder: is this really is an auto-fold?

It seems like there may be a number of reasonable situations where calling makes sense. My thinking is that the limpers will almost definitely call, and there is a chance that one or both of the blinds will call. You've got a reasonable drawing hand with T9s (in what will likely be a five to six way pot) and you also have position the rest of the hand. (One disadvantage is that your relative position might not be all that great; in particular, the raiser is immediately on your right, so if the flop clobbers you, and if it is checked to him and he bets, a raise on your part might blow away the field instead of building a pot).

I guess my questions are: 1) What factors would you consider when deciding whether to call/fold in this spot. And, on a related note, 2) are there a reasonable set of circumstances where you might consider calling the raise? (e.g., can you justify a call if the cut-off is a maniac and raises every other hand...)

rigoletto · #2 10-24-2005, 04:23 PM

I think raising is superior to calling!

pokernicus · #3 10-24-2005, 07:47 PM

I hadn't really considered raising as a real option (or perhaps my sarcasm detector is broken? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]).

Can you elaborate? For a suited connector like T9s, I would think that you want a (preferably large) multi-way pot. If you raise, it seems far more likely for the pot to end up being heads up or two way. (Though I suppose that you might be able to create some deception value...)

Interestingly, this past weekend I saw a $4-$8 hand (details fuzzy) where (before the flop) UTG and UTG+1 limped, MP1 raised, MP2 re-raised, and MP3 four bet. Only MP1 and MP2 called. The flop came Qxx, and it was checked around. The turn was a T, and MP1 bet, MP2 raised, and both MP3 and MP1 called. The river was a 9. MP1 bet, MP2 called, MP3 raised, MP1 called, and MP2 folded in disgust.

MP3 showed J8o for the (second nuts) queen-high straight. MP1 appeared to mumble a few expletives and mucked in total disbelief.

I don't know how you could justify a pre-flop four-bet with J8o, but I suppose if you can do that, then you definitely ought to be able to three-bet T9s. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] So much to learn...

rigoletto · #4 10-24-2005, 08:50 PM

Raising only cost you one more small bet, but will:

1) make a bigger pot for when you hit and tie in the others.

2) Possibly give you a free card.

3) sometimes get you 3-way where you might win with a top pair type hand.

4) It will give you a more dangerous image (metagame).

All in all raising gives you more options

pokernicus · #5 10-24-2005, 09:17 PM

Thanks for clarifying that! Your post makes complete sense. Going back to Brier-Ciaffone, this is looking less and less like an auto-fold (as they suggest) to me.

rigoletto · #6 10-24-2005, 09:22 PM

I forgot one thing!

5) it disguises your hand!

sthief09 · #7 10-24-2005, 09:54 PM

this is interesting. it doesn't seem right but you do make a compelling argument.

some things that go against it are that you likely make it a more shorthanded pot where you're still going to need to make the best hand. the dead money does make up for this though. also your pot equity probably isn't so great. but it's gotta be at least fair share. as I said, you make a really compelling argument. it just doesn't make sense right away.

rigoletto · #8 10-24-2005, 11:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
your pot equity probably isn't so great. but it's gotta be at least fair share

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this a contradiction?

I believe T9s will have more than fair share equity on average.

AceHigh · #9 10-25-2005, 11:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Raising only cost you one more small bet, but will:

1) make a bigger pot for when you hit and tie in the others.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aren't you the one who will be tied to the pot? If the flop comes 9 or 10 high and you get action, your likely beat, so your best flops will be ones that flop draws and you will be a dog to make you hand against top pair, etc.

[ QUOTE ]
2) Possibly give you a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

'Cept we prepaid for our flop free card, I'd hardly call that a bargain.

[ QUOTE ]
3) sometimes get you 3-way where you might win with a top pair type hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but our best flops are likely to be the ones where we flop draws and don't we want lots of opponents so more players will be around to pay us off on the river?

If we flop a flush or straight draw don't we want lots of opponents so when we ram 'n jam the flop we are getting value as dog on our raises?

[ QUOTE ]
4) It will give you a more dangerous image (metagame).

All in all raising gives you more options

[/ QUOTE ]

I prefer more money to more options. Give me lots of opponents and I can't be losing too much equity in this hand by calling. Give me few opponents and one with an overpair and I can be taking much the worst of it.

Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qs Qh 711384 51.90 656462 47.89 2908 0.21 0.520
Kd Jd 389764 28.43 978082 71.35 2908 0.21 0.285
Tc 9c 266698 19.46 1101148 80.33 2908 0.21 0.195

rigoletto · #10 10-25-2005, 12:20 PM

Well, I could be wrong - several responses seems to point to that. A few comments on your post though:

[ QUOTE ]
Aren't you the one who will be tied to the pot? If the flop comes 9 or 10 high and you get action, your likely beat, so your best flops will be ones that flop draws and you will be a dog to make you hand against top pair, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

You will be tied into a 5 way pot anyway with odds to call the flop on a gutshot. Exept now the pot is less likely to be raised in front of you and you might even get a free card to draw to your gutshot.

[ QUOTE ]
'Cept we prepaid for our flop free card, I'd hardly call that a bargain.

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be true if that was the only reason to raise, but since it is not our free card only costs a fraction of a sb.

[ QUOTE ]
If we flop a flush or straight draw don't we want lots of opponents so when we ram 'n jam the flop we are getting value as dog on our raises?

[/ QUOTE ]

There will still be upportunities to ram and jam the flop and more importantly, ram and jam when you hit, since opponents will have a harder time putting you on a hand.