Do you believe the shuffle is really random online???

[Ralphie]

I have been playing online poker for several years now. After starting out a loser I began to make money decent money for about three years. I studied the books from Two Plus Two esp. Hold Em for Advanced Players and Theory of Poker. I discovered Pokerstat and then more recently Pokertracker and used them to monitor and improve my play. My bankroll grew and I wound up playing 15/30 and 30/60 everyday on a well known poker site, making a six figure income.

However in January of this year the "party" stopped. I found that the games which I once dominated seemed almost unbeatable. Luckily I had been loading all my hand histories into Pokertracker so I was able to confirm that I was still playing about the same way I had while I was winning. It seemed that at the higher limits there were a few players who were able to play as if they knew what cards were coming. They would draw to the worst hands at times, but ONLY when they were going to hit. I began to watch carefully and record as many hand histories as I could. In the end the only logical conclusion I could come up with is that some players have discovered a way to predict or control the cards that will be dealt. Someone suggested that a player may have been able to see my cards by using some type of spyware program. Although this is entirely possible, I do not believe it to be the case in my situation. If they could ONLY see my cards why call against my aces, kings ect all the way, without any pot odds, to hit a running straight, running flush or two pair on the river, yet play a tight game the rest of the time.

Just to be totally clear, I am not talking about the times when someone tries to make a bluff, but then proceeds to get lucky by catching cards. I fully understand the semi bluff and it implications in middle to high limit play. What I am talking about is people who play well 90% of the time, but at times make the worst calls only to hit thier hands perfectly. You would expect someone who draws to just a running straight or flush in a small pot to be chasing cards all the time. But these players ONLY do it when they hit.

Also it seems that if they call the turn they will win the pot about 95% of the time. I am assuming the other 5% is just for show, or with hands that would just look too suspicious to support if they found out you folded. For example if you flopped the 2nd nut flush and folded to a player who had flopped the nut flush it would be too obivious that something was wrong.

Anyway sorry for ranting a bit. All I want to know is has anyone else had a similar experence beginning in late 2004/early 2005? If so please post so I will know I am not the only one. I only saw one other post of this nature online and most of the responses were more akin to insults. I have been getting beaten lately and I admit that. If calling someone a loser somehow makes you feel better about yourself then go ahead, no one can stop you. However I would really appreciate it if only people with something of value to add would reply to this post.

Thanks you all who participate!!! Ralphie.

[ravballz]

No they aren't, because computers need a programmed algorithm to make the hands 'random', ironically.

To answer your question in a more serious manner:

ONLINE POKER IS RIGGED

[Ralphie]

What do you mean when you say "rigged"?

We all know that some forms of cheating are possible, such as collusion. But when you say its "rigged" are you implying that the sites themselves are cheating players? For larger sites it really would seem that they have too much to lose should it be discovered. However a small group of rouge employees who discover a way to cheat is not beyond reason.

[Kevin K.]

Ralphie, you are clearly a genius. I highly doubt that you will be completely satisfied with a response from anyone below your level of intelligence.

Therefore, I suggest that you do a search under "rigged". PM a few of those OP's and I'm certain that you will find the answers you are looking for.

[Ralphie]

I am not really sure what you are trying to say in your post. Basically I am just telling people my experence and wondering if anyone else has seen the same thing, or has anything they would like to add. If you think I'm crazy you should be aware that it has happened before. There was a flaw in the shuffle initially used by planet poker which allowed a player to know the exact position of all cards once they saw the flop. There was another problem at one site where the hand history server was hacked and this was used to determine players hole cards in real time.

[ravballz]

It was irony. Basically what you're saying is that some players at some poker sites knows or has figured out what cards are going to fall.

My response to you is: no, this is not possible. It's random, and the poker sites have nothing to gain by rewarding some players. My brother calculated that partypoker makes roughly $7-8 million a day in rakes and transaction fees (might not be accurate, but it gives you an idea of why they don't need to be rigged). They have everything to lose and nothing to gain by doing this.


This will probably be the only half-serious anwser you will get to this question. These kind of posts come by every other week.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I don't know if online shuffles are truly random by the mathmatical definition, but I do know that online shuffles are more random than B&M shuffles.

[Schwartzy61]

You must be playing those PokerBots that all the sites use.

If you ever play video games like Madden NFL, most of the time the CPU seems to know exactly what play you picked.

This just must be one of those instances where the site has used a pokerbot that knows all the cards that will come and when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em.

I seriously doubt this is the same player over and over again doing the same thing. That might be cause for alarm, but if it's just some random opponents doing it to you then it's just some random events combining in a way to really piss you off.

But in all honesty let's try some actual reasons for this...

You've been winning for a long time, perhaps it's just time for you to lose a bit as well. You can't and won't win 'em all. I don't see many posts of people complaining about hitting their last 15 flush draws in a row, or hitting a set with their last 10 pocket pairs. When's the last time someone came to this board to say Online Poker is rigged because they haven't lost a pot at showdown in two weeks? You can't win 'em all, get over it and keep playing your winning ways. There's this little thing called variance that can work for/against you.

Or, The games got tougher to beat because the other players got better or you are playing against some tougher opponents. Are you playing in the exact same game day in and day out and suddenly started losing? People can become better poker players and new players that enter your games can be good players too. Maybe you need to fine tune your table selection a little bit.

So you made a six figure income last year but get off to a slow start this year and have to complain about it? That's why you have to keep a good chunk of change in reserve if you plan to do this for a living. I remember a number like 6mos worth of living expenses in savings to account for any long downswings such as you are experiencing.

Oh and in case you haven't heard, Poker is gambling, so there is always a chance you will lose. And since every hand is random and independent of each other, a suck out on the previous hand does not affect the chances of a suck out on the next hand...

[piggity]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if online shuffles are truly random by the mathmatical definition, but I do know that online shuffles are more random than B&M shuffles.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right on. It is impossible for computers to generate truly "random" numbers. They do the best they can with pseudorandom generators, adding as much entropy into the seeding as possible. Take a look at Paradise's shuffling info page for a good read. Given their algorithm (as audited by PWC), the decks would be far more random than any hand shuffle.

[EnderFFX]

"My bankroll grew and I wound up playing 15/30 and 30/60 everyday on a well known poker site, making a six figure income."

In my experience, when someone tries to illustrate a point by starting out they make 6 figures online poker without giving their alias or the pokersite, they are full of BS.