Folding Ace high heads up

[tewall]

In the WPT Mexican cruise, Daniel Negreanu held A7 against Eric L. who held two medium clubs. Daniel raised pre-flop and was called. The flop came giving Eric a flush draw. Daniel bet the flop, Eric Lindgren raised and Daniel though for quite awhile and folded.

Daniel didn't have many chips left, enough for about one more hand.

I'm interested in any comments on folding in this circumstance, and how having more chips would change things.

[scooby]

I turned on the show just in time for that hand...I think that the more chips you have, the easier the laydown is. IIRC, Negreanu was getting something like 3:1 on his money, but all he had was A high on a board that was something like Q84...While I think the play at the table is read-dependent, it's rather hard to call a raise with Ahigh on that board- it's not immediately clear that someone's making a play on you, as Eric could reasonably have had a hand like QJ or A8 from the preflop betting. I would have had a tough time making that call, and I think Negreanu viewed himself as a better player than Eric, as he knew him well, and thought there were better times to get all his chips in. I guess just chalk it up to why a semibluff is such a good play.

[tewall]

Thank you for your response, but I respectfully disagree with your analysis.

When you're playing heads up, Ace high is a good hand. Unless you are playing a poor person, it's not you can get away with, because any decent heads up player will be pushing enough hands, including draws and out and out bluffs that you just can't get away from it. Even King-high you'll want to show down against most players.

A hand like Ace 4 really sucks if you are behind because you probably only have 3 outs, so it can be worth pushing yourself pre-flop to try to get a read on your opponent. The time to get away from it is on the turn. On the flop you can make enough if you hit your Ace to make it worth drawing to, even if you think you're behind.

However, IIRC Daniel folded the flop. That's unusual. As I mentioned before, getting away from the hand at all is unusual, but it's especially unusual on the flop as a lot of raising on the flop, while the bets are cheap, are BS.

So I think if he had had a lot of chips, he would have played the hand, and the reason he folded it was because there weren't many chips left and he thought his chances would be better if he tried another hand.

However, I think that may be a mistake. Actually I'm pretty sure it is, but Daniel is a much better player than I am, it goes without saying, and it may be that he had a read (which was obviously wrong, but it's easy to second guess when you're watching on TV) and there may be something to the fact that he was short-stacked which I'm not understanding, which was my main reason for posting this.

[tripdad]

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When you're playing heads up, Ace high is a good hand.

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no it isn't.

[ QUOTE ]
Even King-high you'll want to show down against most players.

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lmao. this is why i make money in short handed/heads up play.

cheers!

[tewall]

The odds of someone having a pair after all the cards are out are only 50/50, so 1/4 of the time neither player will have a pair. By the time the river comes there will generally be something like 12 small bets in the pot, so you're getting 6 to 1 on your money, so you can't lay down an ace high hand there as surely if you're playing anybody decent there's a better than 1 in 7 chance they don't have a pair. Likewise on the flop you'll generally be getting something like 6 to 1 on your money, so you're not going to fold it there. And of course you're going to raise an ace high hand pre-flop. So the only place to get away from the hand is on the turn.

The problem is if you're playing a decent player, they will be leading into and raising you with worse hands than Ace high, just like Eric did with the flush draw. This is standard play heads-up, to play draws aggressively, hoping to bluff the other guy out of the pot, because a lot of times he won't have a hand strong enough to take the heat.

If you're playing a poor player, you can get a good enough read to get away from an Ace/poor kicker hand, but against a half-way decent player you'll get killed if you're throwing away Ace high hands.

Do you dispute this? When you play heads up, you routinely throw away your Ace high hands?

If you do, anyone could beat you just by betting all the time.

[exist]

daniel had A8o with the ace of clubs. eric had J6c. the flop was K 9 x (can't remember the last one) with two clubs on the board.

[Michael Davis]

No way. Tewall is right on the money here. Against aggressive players who are *probably* playing a shorthanded game reasonably well, you are better to see every ace you have to a showdown than fold with any frequency.

-Michael

[fyodor]

This might have some merit in limit poker but I don't think I would be prepared to commit my entire stack with Ace high in no limit every time someone put me to the test.

[tewall]

No limit is a completely different game. The only time you'd commit your whole stack to an Ace in NL would be if you were very short-stacked (or your opponent was) or had a very, very good read on your opponent.

[tewall]

OK so if Daniel is behind, he probably has about 3 outs. 3 outs twice is about a 1 in 8 shot, so his total chance of winning would have been about 1 in 8 plus the chance that Eric was bluffing and Daniel's hand held up. He's 50/50 to win the next hand, so if he's pretty sure Eric isn't bluffing maybe folding would be right.

They didn't show enough hands to get an idea of Eric's play, but IMO most players (by a long shot) would bluff often enough to make chasing them down with the Ace worthwhile.