Mind Boggling

[Peter666]

"That means that for almost 2000 years people have been building churches, attending church, fighting wars, reading the bible, etc for no real reason. That's quite mind boggling if you think about it. What a waste of the human mind and body."

Meh, people have to do something in between masturbating sessions.

[NotReady]

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No I said I have a feeling somethings unfair. I never made a leap and said that it is unfair


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You're saying you feel something is unfair but you aren't saying it is unfair. So you either don't know whether it's unfair or not, or you think it is because of your feeling.

Otherwise, what's the significance that you have a feeling?

[chezlaw]

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Now you've accepted that its possible that our reasoning could accidently coincide with nature



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You're putting words in my mouth.

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I didn't mean to.You say
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No I don't. I'm saying that if God didn't exist, it would have to be by chance, by definition. I don't believe it could actually happen by chance because I believe God exists. It's a hypothetical, what some call a counter-factual. If God didn't exist (but He does), then by definition everything is by chance.

I'm assuming your presupposition (which I reject in fact) for the sake of the discussion. If what you say is true, then this logically follows. It doesn't mean I accept your presupposition as true.

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I know you just about refuse to consider no god but isn't it correct to say that its only because of your belief in god that you can't accept the possibility that our reasoning could accidently coincide with nature. Isn't that what this bit means? [ QUOTE ]
I don't believe it could actually happen by chance because I believe God exists.

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chez

[chezlaw]

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No I said I have a feeling somethings unfair. I never made a leap and said that it is unfair


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You're saying you feel something is unfair but you aren't saying it is unfair. So you either don't know whether it's unfair or not, or you think it is because of your feeling.

Otherwise, what's the significance that you have a feeling?

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Its just so much simpler than that. I have feelings about fairness/morality/beauty... all sorts of things, and act on them to some extent.

I'm not claiming any significance.

chez

[NotReady]

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I know you just about refuse to consider no god but isn't it correct to say that its only because of your belief in god


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Yes. But that the God of the Bible exists is my most fundamental, basic presupposition. Since I'm a fallible human being there is a technical correctness if I admit I could be wrong. Technically, I could be Neo in the matrix. If you take that as an admission that I could be Neo in the matrix, fine. I'm finite.

[Aytumious]

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If you can't show that our rational understanding of the universe is in correspondence


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I haven't gone into this before because the subject didn't come up. I speak of reason and logic without qualification. Atheism has no other reason besides man's reason by definition.

Since most of my posts deal with attacking atheism on the basis of its self-contradiction I haven't gone into more detail about reason and logic, but simply used the atheist's own definition.

I have said in the past that man's reason is faulty, so I'm not trying to sandbag here. But since you bring it up I will give you a fuller explanation.

Man is a creature and his reason is that of a creature. He is a fallen creature and as such suffers the noetic effects of sin. Therefore, man's reason is imperfect, flawed and used immorally at times.

When I speak of the fact that the universe has meaning and that reason is valid I'm speaking of Ultimate Reason. God is Ultimate Reason. Our reason is a dim reflection of His. We are made in His image, and that includes our ability to reason.

God is a logical presupposition. I can't show empirically that His thoughts correspond to reality. It's an assumption. I can't show that man's thoughts don't correspond. But if chance is ultimate then the very basis of epistemology is destroyed.

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You are in no position to attack the rationality of those who deny your god if you cannot show that my perceptions of reality do indeed perfectly correspond to the true nature of reality.


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To sum up, this is an invalid argument. God's perceptions of reality correspond to the true nature of reality. God's system of knowledge is exhaustive. Man's system is analogous. We think correctly when we think analogously to God's thoughts and only to the extent we do.

Non-theism presupposes chance and the non-existence of God as its starting point in predication. From that certain logical consequences flow. Theism presupposes the God of the Bible as its starting point and certain consequences flow. Neither can show the truth of their presuppositions through empirical investigation.

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Still, epistemilogical problems exist in your philosophy. You state that god is ultimate reason and that man can be in a state of disconnect from said reason. How is it that you know you are in accord with ultimate reason, and hence in a position to attack those that you deem are not in the same position? If you are not in accord with ultimate reason, you are just as irrational as the rest of this sorry lot.

Also, how can you be certain you are not being deceived by the devil into thinking that you are in accord with god and that you are really doing the devil's work? Satan is a tricky beast, would it not be the ultimate in deception to convince you that the book that you dogmatically adhere to is actually the work of the devil? You may answer that your faith precludes that possibility, but if you made the leap of faith from a position of being in discordance with god, how can you claim that your leap wasn't into the wrong arms, since you admit the reason and judgement of those not in accordance with god is flawed?

Could what you thought was your greatest moment of clarity and reconnection with god really have been been the gleeful embrace of the fallen angle swooping in another unsuspecting victim? Man in discordance with god is a fallen creature and prone to mistakes in judgement.

[NotReady]

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I'm not claiming any significance.


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Is there any moral significance to the Holocaust? I don't mean your feelings about it, but was it wrong? Was Hitler a bad man?

This is very similar to asking you if there's any ultimate meaning to the universe. If you say no to both then as I said in other posts the Gospel doesn't speak to you. You have no belief in right or wrong, you don't think it's possible for you to sin, you think that any higher being can't judge you on a moral basis. Therefore, in your view, you have no need of forgiveness, you have violated no law, you have nothing to worry about.

I can't prove there is meaning to the universe. I can't prove that there is an absolute moral standard, God's law, for which we are all responsible and for which God will hold us accountable. If you really think you're ok from the moral viewpoint there's nothing I can preach to you about. You don't deny that you sin, you deny the possibility of sin.

[chezlaw]

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I know you just about refuse to consider no god but isn't it correct to say that its only because of your belief in god


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Yes. But that the God of the Bible exists is my most fundamental, basic presupposition. Since I'm a fallible human being there is a technical correctness if I admit I could be wrong. Technically, I could be Neo in the matrix. If you take that as an admission that I could be Neo in the matrix, fine. I'm finite.

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Fine so the chance that its all by chance is about the same as the chance your presupposition is mistaken. We agree on that hopefully? but disagree on the magnitude of the chance you're mistaken.

chez

[NotReady]

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How is it that you know you are in accord with ultimate reason, and hence in a position to attack those that you deem are not in the same position? If you are not in accord with ultimate reason, you are just as irrational as the rest of this sorry lot.


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I don't base my assertion of ultimate reason on my own knowledge. I accept the Bible as God's Word and get my presuppositon from it. My attack on non-theism is based on it's own presuppostions. God doesn't have to exist for my attack to be correct. If the universe is irrational nothing else is rational. This is a logical consequence of non-theism, not something derived from the Bible. The system is internally inconsistent.

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Also, how can you be certain you are not being deceived by the devil into thinking that you are in accord with god and that you are really doing the devil's work?


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Certainty is a tricky proposition. We are told not to think more highly of ourselves than we ought to think and not to lean on our own understanding. I trust in God and pray for Him to deliver me from error. Jesus said"I am the way, the truth and the life". He also said "You will know the truth and the truth will make you free". I'm totally dependent on His Word.

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Satan is a tricky beast, would it not be the ultimate in deception to convince you that the book that you dogmatically adhere to is actually the work of the devil?


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There are many books and systems of thought he would like to convince you are the truth. It seems unlikely he would pick the Bible.

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how can you claim that your leap wasn't into the wrong arms, since you admit the reason and judgement of those not in accordance with god is flawed?


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Assurance is a product of time, effort, difficulty and suffering. The Bible says "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling because it is God Who works in you". "Whom the Lord loves, he disciplines". There is a subjective element to Christianity as well as argumentation. "I know Who I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to guard that which I've committed to Him until that day". Prayer and meditation, fellowship and Bible study, help.

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Could what you thought was your greatest moment of clarity and reconnection with god really have been been the gleeful embrace of the fallen angle swooping in another unsuspecting victim? Man in discordance with god is a fallen creature and prone to mistakes in judgement.


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I pay attention to the following.

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the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet

for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.

Submit therefore to God Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

taking up the (AJ)shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the (AK)flaming arrows of (AL)the evil one.


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Life is a risky business.

[chezlaw]

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I'm not claiming any significance.


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Is there any moral significance to the Holocaust? I don't mean your feelings about it, but was it wrong? Was Hitler a bad man?

This is very similar to asking you if there's any ultimate meaning to the universe. If you say no to both then as I said in other posts the Gospel doesn't speak to you. You have no belief in right or wrong, you don't think it's possible for you to sin, you think that any higher being can't judge you on a moral basis. Therefore, in your view, you have no need of forgiveness, you have violated no law, you have nothing to worry about.

I can't prove there is meaning to the universe. I can't prove that there is an absolute moral standard, God's law, for which we are all responsible and for which God will hold us accountable. If you really think you're ok from the moral viewpoint there's nothing I can preach to you about. You don't deny that you sin, you deny the possibility of sin.

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By my own standards Hitler was a very bad man i.e. I have a moral feeling he was a very bad man. I accept that this is subjective.

The rest of what you said doesn't follow. It is entirely consistent for me to have personal feelings of right/wrong, no belief in absolute right/wrong and to believe I sometimes do wrong (sin).

I don't believe in god but accept that its possible there is a god. If there is then he knows I believe I do wrong on occasions (sin). I feel no fear in facing god, if there is a god I know he knows why I dont believe in him.

Agreed there's no point in preaching the gospel to me but I'm open to reason. My feelings of right/wrong don't appear to be fixed, understanding things better changes how I feel.

chez