Interesting Bluffing Game

[baggins]

i'm not sure the best forum for this, but...

so, i was introduced to a very simple game the other night, but it is fun, and has implications on the game of poker, i think. so, i'll describe it, and then you can all post your thoughts on the game. perhaps even come up with a basic +EV strategy (though the game isn't played for money, it COULD be).

here's how it works. you have a group of people sitting around. one person (player A) starts with a cup containing 2 normal 6-sided dice. they shake up the container, look inside, and announce the 'score' they rolled. then they cover up the cup and pass it to the person on their right (player B). B now has a decision. do they believe A? if not, then they look inside the container and check if A was lying. if A was lying, and gets caught by B, then A gets a point. if A was telling the truth, and B looks and confirms this, then B gets a point.

however, B can choose to believe A. if B chooses not to check the previous roll, then B must roll and score higher than A (ties are acceptable as well). even if B doesn't score higher than A, B must announce a score higher than A and pass the cup to player C. then C has the same options as A. the point of the game is to be the last person with less than 6 points. once you get 6, you're out.

the scoring of the dice rolls are as follows:

lowest to highest:
31
32
41
42
43
51
52
53
54
61
62
63
64
65
11
22
33
44
55
66
21 - also called 'Arriba!' for some reason it has been arbitrarily made the highest roll. it has special rules.

so if the 2 dice you roll read '3, 4' you have rolled a 43. the highest number possible from such a combination. which is why you can't roll a 25, for example.

rules regarding a roll of 21, or Arriba!:

if player D rolls and announces Arriba or 21, then player E has the following options:

1 - believe D and take one point. the rolling starts over, E not having to beat D's score.
2 - not believe D and look at D's roll. at this point, it become double or nothing. if D did roll 21, then E takes 2 points. if D was lying, then D takes 2 points. in one specific instance, this changes. this occurs when E has 5 points and cannot take the 1-point for believing D. he has the option to roll without looking at D's roll and try to tie 21. the implications of this should be apparent.

whenever somebody looks at the previous player's roll, the rolling starts over. in other words, if D doesn't believe C, and looks at C's roll, D doesn't have to beat C's score. D establishes a new score for E to beat, etc.

[Wake up CALL]

This has the potential to become a great "drinking" game. After one or two rounds of rolls everyone is drunk and the next thing you know a hockey game breaks out! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Copernicus]

This is simple? Indian chief is simple....

[baggins]

once you realize how the numbering system works, it is simple as hell. is the guy before you bluffing? or did he announce a number too high for you to try to beat? how do i bluff in a way that my opponent doesn't suspect it?

[Nottom]

I'm not sure how it should go on the later rounds, but the first round seems pretty simple.

If you roll below a 51 you should say you have a 54 or 61 (vary it a bit so they might not catch on) keep your roll on anything else.

After that you just roll and if you miss pick something not too much higher than the target and hope to get away with it, and always sound really excited about your roll.

Sound about right?

[baggins]

probably. although, if you are the first to roll, there is no reason to lie about it. you only stand to lose. this can break down a bit if you are one of the last 2, but...

also, it helps to vary your 'bluffs' a bit. when i played it for the first time, i noticed a pattern in the way some people would bluff. they would automatically add 10 to the previous person's score. when i caught people doing that before me, i was able to bust some people out.

also, when the roll before you gets higher than a certain point, it becomes more likely that the person before you is bluffing. it also becomes harder to roll a higher score legitimately (which makes the guy after you more likely to call your inevitable bluff). it becomes better for you to call a bluff instead of having your bluff called after a certain point.

e.g. - if the rolling got around to me and the the previous player passes me the dice and announces 44, I'm going to probably check it, instead of trying to roll 55, 66, or 21. because a) its not likely i'll roll one of those, and i will be forced to lie, and b) knowing (a) the guy after me is more likely to call my bluff.

the trouble is, I don't know how to put this into a math equation to figure out the best game-theoretically sound point at which to look at the dice instead of trying to beat the roll.

it also works inversely for the low numbers.

i.e. - if someone announces 42, I'm going to have a good chance of beating that roll, so I'm losing if i call bluffs this low (unless i have a read, which happens often).

do my questions here make sense? anybody care to help out on a 'break even' rolling/calling strategy?

[David BB]

Where I'm from (Denmark) this is a well known game called "Mayer". Most commonly played over a few beers in bars and pubs.

It plays pretty much like described, but with a few exceptions:

Scores go like this:

32
41
42
43
51
52
53
54
61
62
63
64
65
11
22
33
44
55
66
31 - called "Little Mayer"
21 - called "Mayer"

You don't gain points - you only lose them. Each player keeps a dice in front of him to indicate his points - starting at 6.

Every time youre caught bluffing you lose one point, and every time you lift the cup and the dice show the number the player before you said you also lose one point.

Whenever theres a big "Mayer" (21) involved you lose two points instead of one.

When you lose your last of the 6 points youre out and have to wait for a new round to begin (and buy a round of beers for the table! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img])

The winner is of course the last player with points left.

A common variation is as follows:

If you dont manage to beat the score of the player behind you and you know the person after you is gonna call your bluff. You can shake the cups one more time, pass it on, and say "or above". Meaning that you expect the score to be above the previous score. The next player can the chose to lift or shake as usual.

Lots of other variations exist and its easy to make up your own! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

/David

[Bokonon]

Reminds me of this game . . .

In those games, everyone starts with a cup and 5 dice. Everyone rolls (secretly). The start player proposes that there are a certain count of a certain number of dice under all cups -- say, seven 2s. The next player can either "Call his bluff", in which case everyone reveals their dice and the 2s are counted up -- or up the bid by either increasing the number of 2s ("I say eight 2s"), increasing the number of pips ("I say seven 3s") or both ("I say ten 5s").

If the bettor's bluff is called and he is short dice, he loses the # of dice from his cup that he was short. So if there were only five 2s, he loses two dice. If there were more 2s, then the person who called the bluff loses dice. If the bet was EXACTLY correct, then everyone but the bettor loses one die.

And you keep playing until only one person has dice left.

(There are a couple other rules/twists, but that's the gist). Fun game.

[ramjam]

Yes, and interestingly the game was endorsed in the UK by an author/comedian also known for playing poker.

Perudo is fun - but I would rather wile away the hours playing Mayer in a bar in Copenhagen.

[FR_Mainiac]

I use to play it all the time as a drinking game in college. We call it Mexican....if you thought someone was bluffing you would say "Bxxx Sxxx". If you were wrong you would drink if you were right the bluffer would drink. If I recall if you got "Mexican" which was 21 then the whole table would drink.....but I can't remember because it's been a long time and many hangovers ago since the last time i played it.