Overpair to Double Paired Board, What Line?

_Kevin_ · #1 12-07-2005, 12:20 AM

Both villians here are loose and too passive but aren't terrible post flop. Both are probably 40-45% VP$IP with post flop aggression factors of about 1.0. MP2 is a little more aggressive but not much. Neither has shown down pure preflop trash but have shown down middle or bottom pair as well as busted draws with no pair on the river. They have also not pushed good hands against an aggressor (i.e., top pair, etc.). They will both fold the flop is they completely miss (at least that's my assumption since I've seen both fold the Flop when the PFR continuation bet). I can't believe PF and flop aren't standard but feel free to comment.

What is your line for the rest of the hand? Please give your reasoning.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero raises, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds.

Flop: (10.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, Button folds, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero ???

benkath1 · #2 12-07-2005, 12:22 AM

I fire again and get prepared to fold. If they call, no way am I betting the river.

shant · #3 12-07-2005, 12:29 AM

Against the opponents you described I would bet/fold. Against a trickier, more aggressive opponent I would be more inclined to check. If it were heads up I would also be more inclined.

3-way with 2 flush draws and a possible open-ended straight draw out there I am not so into giving a possible free card.

#4 12-07-2005, 12:47 AM

*grunch*

Preflop: obviously fine.

Flop: good.

Turn: what a nasty card! I'd fire a bet here and, if raised, absent some read, fold. Just not willing to go to war here.

ajm36 · #5 12-07-2005, 12:52 AM

bet/fold the turn and the same with the river--only with passive opponents, though.

goofball · #6 12-07-2005, 06:48 AM

Bet the turn fo sho. Make them fold flushdraws and even aces [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

On the river (if they both call) you can still bet for value. Basically you have to decide if one of them is a pissed off 9 and if you decide yes then check through.

#7 12-07-2005, 11:06 AM

:grunching

Bet turn, fold to a raise. Probably c/c the river UI. You just can't give the villains credit for a 9 or Q when they check to you on the turn.

Thebram · #8 12-07-2005, 11:21 AM

...grunch...

I slow down here. If you check, you get a free chance to hit a 2 outer, plus if the river comes bet-raise, you can make an easy fold.

There are a few hands that would call the flop that don't include a Q or a 9, but not enough to put both opponents on them.

HU, I would probably bet the turn, but not against two players.

#9 12-07-2005, 11:33 AM

Grunch:

It's true you might be behind to a 9 or a Q and get re-raised, but since they are LP, they might simply be hoping to pair the board. One or both could also have a flush draw. I think giving them a free card is out of the question here.

Thebram · #10 12-07-2005, 11:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Against the opponents you described I would bet/fold. Against a trickier, more aggressive opponent I would be more inclined to check. If it were heads up I would also be more inclined.

3-way with 2 flush draws and a possible open-ended straight draw out there I am not so into giving a possible free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

I found it interesting that everyone advocated a bet/fold line but me.
For the record I HATE bet/fold here.
You have position, so you are guaranteed to get a free card. Essentially infinite odds at your two outs to the 3rd nuts when we're behind.
If we were first to act, then a bet/fold makes a lot more sense.
I'd also consider a bet/fold if we think a 9 will no longer raise, or if there is a very strong chance of a Q waiting for the river to raise.
But given the OP's description of the players, I'd rather see the river for free.

You may have the best hand, and giving a free card to a heart draw would suck. But to put one of them on a runner-runner diamond flush seems a stretch.

Also, I dont mind a free card against a oesd, as two of their outs gives us a better hand.
[Edit] I forgot, that one of their heart outs gives us a better hand too.