Blind defense with A9s

krimson · #1 11-19-2005, 02:07 AM

This hand somewhat lacks substance, but I can't for the life of me decide what is best on this flop.

This is my first hand on the table (posting in BB), and the SB just sat down and posted 1 hand earlier, so no reads.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
7 folds, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, SB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

River: (6 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 6 BB

Nick C · #2 11-19-2005, 02:30 AM

It's interesting, because if Villain happens to be semibluffing JT on the flop, the only "outs" you have are the blanks that keep you ahead.

Anyway, I like the line you took. If we knew Villain would fire again on the turn, then I think I'd just fold and get it over with. But your flop call might slow Villain down and give you a chance to steal on the turn versus Villain's pocket 5's.

Unfortunately, though, semibluffs that have you beat (AJ/AT) aren't going to be easy to get rid of.

#3 11-19-2005, 04:15 AM

I accidently clicked away my post but it went something like this:

I believe that you should raise the flop.

If he reraises: take one off and pray for a diamond or an Ace. Fold the turn if he bets and you dont pick up a draw. he might be betting a draw like 10 9 or J 10 but there are enough hands out there that you shouldnt call to justify a fold. If he was bluffing you like crazy with 3 2 off he'll do it again later in the game and you can profit it from it then, but let someone else pay for that information.

if he calls: Just bet out on the turn no matter what, if he folds - fine, if he raises - fold, if he calls fold the river.

Richard Berg · #4 11-19-2005, 04:25 AM

Looks good to me. You don't have enough outs to raise unless you think he's weak, which of course you have no idea. Your line lets you showdown your A9 cheaply while giving him a chance to fold a small pair the turn.

toss · #5 11-19-2005, 04:28 AM

I really have no problem with just peeling the flop and folding or just folding outright. We have a backdoor flush draw and some pair outs. Whats villain going to bet here with? A King, Queen, or smaller pair. If villain has a K or Q we really don't have the odds to peel.

#6 11-19-2005, 04:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This hand somewhat lacks substance,

[/ QUOTE ]
yeah for sure, you need to leqrn shorthandd poker better, the f'in semi b luff on the turn was like a wase of money. so he like isnt gonna fold. check.call check /fold and then you gots a winningh combination.

JJNJustin · #7 11-19-2005, 07:17 AM

The three bet preflop is iffy. I could play it either way, just calling or three betting. The problem with three betting with A9 is that you are basically telling him you hold an ACE, and also showing some hostility because he is going after you blind so aggressively. Had you just called his raise, he would have no idea what you held, and you, having position, would force him to check alot, either on the flop or after, to see if it missed you or not. Also, by three betting, as you see by your own play, you get sucked in to the hand and have a hard time getting away from it (you kind of tried to hit a runner runner flush here). Lastly, you give him an opportunity to make it 4 bets if he indeed holds the best hand, whereas had you just called he would have no such opportunity.

Say for example he holds Ace with a better kicker something huge like AA, by calling with your A9s, you are getting 3 to 1 immediate pot odds and implied odds if you catch a flop. A9s is about a 3 to 1 underdog to AK, so you are still playing correctly. Now say you 3-bet and he caps, now you are putting in 3 bets to win 5 + implied odds, so you are getting much the worst of it here. However, if he holds a hand you beat (like KQ), he is still only a small underdog to your hand (A9s), and if you 3-bet him his is not incorrect to call your raise, since he raised to begin with.

But, having said all that, there ares still some instances where I would 3-bet. Against a weak player, a tight player, or someone who would go after my blind with anything. Most often, though I would just call. Had your kicker been in the face care region, I would lean towards re-raising, but as I said before, I could play it either way.

The flop misses you completely. He bets, which could mean he has a pair, some kind of straight draw, Ace high, or nothing. With this flop, it is more likely you are beaten than if three rags flopped. Also, remember even if you do hold the best hand with Ace high, you are not that much of a favorite against many hands because of the straight draw. For example you are in bad shape against any K, Q, and horrible shape against any AK, AQ, AJ, or AT. Even against JT, J9, 98, T8, T9 you are either 50/50 or he may be a small favorite. Against any pocket pair you are in bad shape. The only hands you are really beating here is A8 and lower, and he has a good chance to chop with you.
So all this being said, the flop is bad for you and you should strongly consider folding. If you feel he is weak you might raise him once, but if he calls dont bet anymore.
I would probably just flat fold here. By not three betting before the flop, I can get away from this hand on this bad flop more easily.

I would say that is your only real mistake is just calling on the flop. You either want to raise and hope he has nothing and folds or fold yourself, because the flop has missed you.

best of luck
-J

elindauer · #8 11-19-2005, 07:30 AM

Essentially every decision in this hand should be answered with a probability triple, which is why you are going to get all kinds of random answers to this thread, none of them convincing. Just call preflop, fold the flop, raise the flop, blah blah blah.

You're heads up against an unknown opponent. Always doing any of these is bad. The answer has to be a mixed strategy.

Unfortunately, I don't know what the mixed strategy is for each of these decisions, but perhaps I can start you on the path to finding it. Here's a guess at how I'd play it:

preflop facing a raise {0, 50, 50}

flop after having raised and being donkbet by this unknown {33, 33, 33}

See my post in the midhigh forum for more details.

good luck.
eric

toss · #9 11-19-2005, 07:36 AM

I think the PF is more like {0,35,65}. We got position and a good hand HU. This whole hand depends heavily on villain's traits. I'm not even gonig to try the flop since its so read dependant. All I know is that calling or folding is better than raising probably. Assigning numerical values would be too hard. Now if we were to assign ranges instead... Maybe {15-45,60-30,5-25}

elindauer · #10 11-19-2005, 10:37 AM

tosh, it absolutely made my day that you used this notation to continue the discussion. thanks for that.

[ QUOTE ]
I think the PF is more like {0,35,65}. We got position and a good hand HU.

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I don't have a problem with raising more. I tend to prefer to play it a little slower because I expect the SB to lead all flops, so I get the raise in then and try to convince him that I actually have a piece of the flop. After playing it slow preflop and hiding my strength, I'm more reluctant to just roll over on the flop and fold, especially since my raise can very convincingly suggest I have a piece of the flop.

I think your strategy and mine are substitutable against most opponents. Against a perfect playing poker machine, I'd guess yours is better.

[ QUOTE ]
This whole hand depends heavily on villain's traits. I'm not even gonig to try the flop since its so read dependant. All I know is that calling or folding is better than raising probably. Assigning numerical values would be too hard. Now if we were to assign ranges instead... Maybe {15-45,60-30,5-25}

[/ QUOTE ]

I like your ranges. They're pretty wide of course, but they still give you a good feel for approximately how to handle the hand. They leave room for trying to outplay your opponent by folding when you think the time is right, etc, but still confine you to some extent. "Go ahead and play back sometimes", they say, "but don't get carried away". "call enough to avoid being run over, but fold enough to respect the strength he's representing". Very interesting.

-eric