Two Questions about Home Game Ettiquette (long)

[Snarf]

My friends and I play small buy-in tourneys together at least two-three times a week. We've worked hard this past year - not only at getting better - but also at following 'proper ettiquitte' and 'casino roles' closer and closer. We manage a very healthy balance of friendly fun and 'poker proffessionalism' if you will.

I've gone out of my way to be well read regarding poker ettiquette in any number of situations and have discussed it at length with my friends to come to mutual understandings that are as close to the 'book' as we can figure and still allow for the maximum amount of fairness and fun.

Thats just some background about our group. I have two ettiquette questions.

1) I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this one - but just wanted to clarify for my own sake. We've always followed the rule of 'show one show all' for showing your card at the end of a hand. However this only applies to people IN THE GAME, right? For instance, it is a common occurence that one of the first couple people out will accept the full-time dealer role. If - with a player's permission - the DEALER (who is out of the tourney) were to look at a player's mucked cards --- does that give other players a right to ask to see the hand under the 'show one show all' rule?
I know my opinion but we recently had a semi-heated confrontation with a decent player new to our group who disagrees with my take, stating that the dealer was 'at the table' and therefore the hand should be flipped over for all to see.

2) And on this question I really need some actual guidance: Does a player have to be present at the table to play a hand. Meaning, can they look at their cards, step outside for a smoke, have the dealer basically shout out the flop and then mouth their actions through the window. Does the answer change if I'm merely standing five feet away from the table? How do casinos and proffesional tourneys handle this? How do you guys handle this in your home games?

Thanks.

If you're trying to be as close to a casino as you can, then really you should just disallow both of these things. You'll never see a dealer look at your cards at a casino, and no one will be yellin CALL, FOLD, RAISE standing away from the table at a casino.

However if you're going to allow these things to happen (since its still a friendly game), then I'd have to say "show one, show all" doesn't apply if the dealer looks.

For the 2nd one, I would be very annoyed if someone was mouthing his play through a window. There's no way I could stand that. I'd be annoyed as well if someone were 5 feet away saying CALL, but not quite as annoyed. Either way, I don't think I could allow this to happen...I"d try and make it a general rule that you have to be at the table to play.

1: If anyone looks with permission at mucked cards, then the cards have to be shown to everyone, whether they are still playing or not. Show one, show all.

2: Its a home game, whatever you guys think. Casino rule I beleive is you have to be at the table to play a hand. You guys may bend the rule for smokers which would be understandable. Maybe you do this and don't allow a break instead.

[DerryABU]

Show one show all means exactly that.Just because someone is out of the hand doesn't give him anymore right to see cards that noone else can.The whole point of seeing the cards is so that you can gain info on the other players actions therefore its unfair that one player should see the cards and not everyone else.
If you want to play by casino rules as you say then you have to show everyone.

[ QUOTE ]
My friends and I play small buy-in tourneys together at least two-three times a week. We've worked hard this past year - not only at getting better - but also at following 'proper ettiquitte' and 'casino roles' closer and closer. We manage a very healthy balance of friendly fun and 'poker proffessionalism' if you will.

I've gone out of my way to be well read regarding poker ettiquette in any number of situations and have discussed it at length with my friends to come to mutual understandings that are as close to the 'book' as we can figure and still allow for the maximum amount of fairness and fun.

Thats just some background about our group. I have two ettiquette questions.

1) I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this one - but just wanted to clarify for my own sake. We've always followed the rule of 'show one show all' for showing your card at the end of a hand. However this only applies to people IN THE GAME, right? For instance, it is a common occurence that one of the first couple people out will accept the full-time dealer role. If - with a player's permission - the DEALER (who is out of the tourney) were to look at a player's mucked cards --- does that give other players a right to ask to see the hand under the 'show one show all' rule?
I know my opinion but we recently had a semi-heated confrontation with a decent player new to our group who disagrees with my take, stating that the dealer was 'at the table' and therefore the hand should be flipped over for all to see.

2) And on this question I really need some actual guidance: Does a player have to be present at the table to play a hand. Meaning, can they look at their cards, step outside for a smoke, have the dealer basically shout out the flop and then mouth their actions through the window. Does the answer change if I'm merely standing five feet away from the table? How do casinos and proffesional tourneys handle this? How do you guys handle this in your home games?

Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your dealer is not currently a player in the game show one all does not apply. The reason for the rule is so that no one player has an advantage in the game over the others, since the dealer is not a player he can't get an advantage. It happens all the time that a player sitting next to a dealer will lift their cards up for the dealer to see them. Technically this should not happen because it is unprofessional for a dealer to be looking at the cards, but really what can you do when the guy next you picks them up and shoves them in your face. Though the dealer should simply try not to look and should never pickup cards to look at them.

On the second issue, you should not allow a player to regularly step away froma table and call out their action. For one thing if they are not at their seat they may be behind a player with cards and get to see them. However in a casino if a player steps away from the table but is right there and in a hand I might say hey its your action and give him a chance to get back to the seat before he mucks his hand, if he tells me his action I'll probably honor that but if he keeps doing it I will tell him that he can't do it anymore. in a home game I would be more liberal about it, unless it gets out of hand.

[ QUOTE ]
If your dealer is not currently a player in the game show one all does not apply. The reason for the rule is so that no one player has an advantage in the game over the others, since the dealer is not a player he can't get an advantage. It happens all the time that a player sitting next to a dealer will lift their cards up for the dealer to see them. Technically this should not happen because it is unprofessional for a dealer to be looking at the cards, but really what can you do when the guy next you picks them up and shoves them in your face. Though the dealer should simply try not to look and should never pickup cards to look at them.


[/ QUOTE ]

Have to disagree with you there. Since the dealer was a player in the game, the show one show all rule applies. Everyone would have the right to see the cards if the dealer saw them. THis includes players who were beat out.

[ QUOTE ]
Have to disagree with you there. Since the dealer was a player in the game, the show one show all rule applies. Everyone would have the right to see the cards if the dealer saw them. THis includes players who were beat out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're only saying this because this was a former player...if the player showed his noob wife instead, would he have to show everyone?

If the answer is no, then I believe he shouldn't have to show to the dealer who isn't in the tournament.

[Snarf]

We've always follow the rule of 'show one show all' as 'show one person PLAYING show all.' Quite often the ones of us who care a lot about poker have treated looking at mucked cards as their 'tip.' If that makes any sense. Not so much to learn how specific people play to take advantage of them, as much as to learn more about poker. How to effectively play certain hands in certain spots, or NOT to play, etc...Learning from each other.

Surprised to hear disagreement on the issue really. I really thought it was 'show one player show them all' not 'show ANY person NOT in the tourney show them all.'

Probably in the future the dealers just won't look while hes playing to avoid any conflict.

As for the smoking issue - someone brought up allowing it in place of taking breaks. I kinda like where you went with that. I've been thinking of initiaiting breaks into the tourneys anyways.

You guys have breaks in your home games? Every 2 blind levels? 3? I've always been nervous about the breaks getting out of control and taking too long.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If your dealer is not currently a player in the game show one all does not apply. The reason for the rule is so that no one player has an advantage in the game over the others, since the dealer is not a player he can't get an advantage. It happens all the time that a player sitting next to a dealer will lift their cards up for the dealer to see them. Technically this should not happen because it is unprofessional for a dealer to be looking at the cards, but really what can you do when the guy next you picks them up and shoves them in your face. Though the dealer should simply try not to look and should never pickup cards to look at them.


[/ QUOTE ]

Have to disagree with you there. Since the dealer was a player in the game, the show one show all rule applies. Everyone would have the right to see the cards if the dealer saw them. THis includes players who were beat out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? What makes you think players no longer in the tournament have any interest in the hands? (they have be interested in the sense that they want to see them, but they are not interested in the sense that they have no stake in the outcome.) Are you suggesting that in a big tournament a player who is eliminated early can hang around a table and enforce the Show One Show All rule? The dealer WAS a[player in the game that is past tense. The dealer IS NOT a player in the game.

oops, have to take my post back. I guess I would mean any players left at the table whether they were in the hand or had folded would have a right to see the cards, show one, show all. If the cards were shown to anyone else, the rule wouldn't be in effect. ex. their wife or the dealer.

Sorry about that guys