Two Questions about Home Game Ettiquette (long)

[Lottery Larry]

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1) For instance, it is a common occurence that one of the first couple people out will accept the full-time dealer role. If - with a player's permission - the DEALER (who is out of the tourney) were to look at a player's mucked cards --- does that give other players a right to ask to see the hand under the 'show one show all' rule?

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Technically, no, show one show all doesn't apply if the dealer isn't playing.
However, allowing this is stupid. Make a rule against the dealer looking at cards, permission or no.



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2) And on this question I really need some actual guidance: Does a player have to be present at the table to play a hand. Meaning, can they look at their cards, step outside for a smoke, have the dealer basically shout out the flop and then mouth their actions through the window. Does the answer change if I'm merely standing five feet away from the table? How do casinos and proffesional tourneys handle this? How do you guys handle this in your home games?


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Casinos, you have to be at your seat pretty much to play the hand. Allowing this yelling over stuff in home games is generally a bad idea as well.

1) Show one, show all including a player that has been knocked out of the the tourni. Dealer is still part of the game.

2) Persons leaves the table, call the clock and they are auto-folded. But then again it's a home game and if people need a break like this during the game then set a standard break time so this type of thing doesn't happen becuase i can guarantee it irritates other players at the table.

[Colquhoun]

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Why? What makes you think players no longer in the tournament have any interest in the hands? (they have be interested in the sense that they want to see them, but they are not interested in the sense that they have no stake in the outcome.) Are you suggesting that in a big tournament a player who is eliminated early can hang around a table and enforce the Show One Show All rule? The dealer WAS a[player in the game that is past tense. The dealer IS NOT a player in the game.

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If this dealer is a regular player with this group, you better believe he is an interested party in this. If this were a dedicated dealer that never played, I would not care if he looked at mucked cards. While this person is no longer in THIS tournament, he CAN gain knowledge about a future opponent by looking at mucked cards, all this without the others gaining the same info. No way, I don't like it.

[pokerrookie]

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My friends and I play small buy-in tourneys together at least two-three times a week. We've worked hard this past year - not only at getting better - but also at following 'proper ettiquitte' and 'casino roles' closer and closer. We manage a very healthy balance of friendly fun and 'poker proffessionalism' if you will.

I've gone out of my way to be well read regarding poker ettiquette in any number of situations and have discussed it at length with my friends to come to mutual understandings that are as close to the 'book' as we can figure and still allow for the maximum amount of fairness and fun.

Thats just some background about our group. I have two ettiquette questions.

1) I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this one - but just wanted to clarify for my own sake. We've always followed the rule of 'show one show all' for showing your card at the end of a hand. However this only applies to people IN THE GAME, right? For instance, it is a common occurence that one of the first couple people out will accept the full-time dealer role. If - with a player's permission - the DEALER (who is out of the tourney) were to look at a player's mucked cards --- does that give other players a right to ask to see the hand under the 'show one show all' rule?
I know my opinion but we recently had a semi-heated confrontation with a decent player new to our group who disagrees with my take, stating that the dealer was 'at the table' and therefore the hand should be flipped over for all to see.

2) And on this question I really need some actual guidance: Does a player have to be present at the table to play a hand. Meaning, can they look at their cards, step outside for a smoke, have the dealer basically shout out the flop and then mouth their actions through the window. Does the answer change if I'm merely standing five feet away from the table? How do casinos and proffesional tourneys handle this? How do you guys handle this in your home games?

Thanks.

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In our games, the dealer who has busted is granted the privilege of looking at the cards folded. Its kind of a token of appreciation for his being willing to deal. When I bust out, I am always willing to deal because I get to see the cards, and learn about others plays. If I didnt get to do this, I would simply log on and play some online. In some ways, having this philosophy makes the competitin tighter. As in, the more you deal, the more opportunities you have to learn, the better you get. Kind of like the worst team getting the top draft pick every year.

[Zetack]

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Why? What makes you think players no longer in the tournament have any interest in the hands? (they have be interested in the sense that they want to see them, but they are not interested in the sense that they have no stake in the outcome.) Are you suggesting that in a big tournament a player who is eliminated early can hang around a table and enforce the Show One Show All rule? The dealer WAS a[player in the game that is past tense. The dealer IS NOT a player in the game.

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If this dealer is a regular player with this group, you better believe he is an interested party in this. If this were a dedicated dealer that never played, I would not care if he looked at mucked cards. While this person is no longer in THIS tournament, he CAN gain knowledge about a future opponent by looking at mucked cards, all this without the others gaining the same info. No way, I don't like it.

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Nice sentiment, and you can make it a rule if you want at your own homegame, but its just not applicable under the show one show all rule. Remember, the deales is both looking at the cards with permission, and no longer playing in the tourney. Its no different than showing your cards to any other railbird including one who was playing earlier and busted out. You can let somebody sweat you if you want, including a busted out player. The dealer is just a busted out player.

By your logic, if I'm a regular player in the game, and they are going to run two tourneys, and I show up late for one and am sitting around waiting for the next tourney to start, if a player shows me his cards he has to show everybody, even though I was never even in his tournament cause I'm gaining knowleged about a future opponent.

--Zetack

[beekeeper]

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If this dealer is a regular player with this group, you better believe he is an interested party in this. If this were a dedicated dealer that never played, I would not care if he looked at mucked cards. While this person is no longer in THIS tournament, he CAN gain knowledge about a future opponent by looking at mucked cards, all this without the others gaining the same info. No way, I don't like it.

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I agree. Our home game is similar to the OP--we try to strike a balance between fun and "professional." Guys who bust out sometimes will sit next to their friends and look at their hands while playing--stuff like that happens. We have the "show one show all" rule, but it's not "enforced."

However, if the OP doesn't think that just because the dealer is no longer in that tournament he isn't gaining an advantage over the other players, the OP is mistaken. If one player gets to observe how other player's hands are played, how they bet, what they fold, etc., and no other players get this info, it's not fair to the table. That's info that the players still playing have to pay to see, for one thing. It's strategic info that only the dealer gets to see, and he'll use it from that point forward: i.e., in all future tournaments.

[Colquhoun]

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By your logic, if I'm a regular player in the game, and they are going to run two tourneys, and I show up late for one and am sitting around waiting for the next tourney to start, if a player shows me his cards he has to show everybody, even though I was never even in his tournament cause I'm gaining knowleged about a future opponent.

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Exactly. You understand my point perfectly. There should be no showing of cards unless everyone sees it.

[Zetack]

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If this dealer is a regular player with this group, you better believe he is an interested party in this. If this were a dedicated dealer that never played, I would not care if he looked at mucked cards. While this person is no longer in THIS tournament, he CAN gain knowledge about a future opponent by looking at mucked cards, all this without the others gaining the same info. No way, I don't like it.

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I agree. Our home game is similar to the OP--we try to strike a balance between fun and "professional." Guys who bust out sometimes will sit next to their friends and look at their hands while playing--stuff like that happens. We have the "show one show all" rule, but it's not "enforced."

However, if the OP doesn't think that just because the dealer is no longer in that tournament he isn't gaining an advantage over the other players, the OP is mistaken. If one player gets to observe how other player's hands are played, how they bet, what they fold, etc., and no other players get this info, it's not fair to the table. That's info that the players still playing have to pay to see, for one thing. It's strategic info that only the dealer gets to see, and he'll use it from that point forward: i.e., in all future tournaments.

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So what? The question isn't weather the dealer is getting some hypothetical advantage in a future game. The game could break up, the dealer and player A could head to a bar, and player A could spill his guts for two hours about how he plays and the tells he just can't quite control but luckily nobody has seemed to notice yet. Dealer isn't required to share this information with the other players.

Here's the rule from Robert's Rules of Poker:

6. Show one, show all. Players are entitled to receive equal access to information about the contents of another player’s hand. After a deal, if cards are shown to another player, every player at the table has a right to see those cards. During a deal, cards that were shown to an active player who might have a further wagering decision on that betting round must immediately be shown to all the other players. If the player who saw the cards is not involved in the deal, or cannot use the information in wagering, the information should be withheld until the betting is over, so it does not affect the normal outcome of the deal. Cards shown to a person who has no more wagering decisions on that betting round, but might use the information on a later betting round, should be shown to the other players at the conclusion of that betting round. If only a portion of the hand has been shown, there is no requirement to show any of the unseen cards. The shown cards are treated as given in the preceding part of this rule.


Look at that first sentence: "Players are entitled to receive equal access to....another player's..." The dealer simply isn't a player. He's a past player, and may be a future player, but he isn't a current player.

You don't like that rule, fine, make whatever rule you want for your own game. But in most games you aren't going to get to see the cards if a non-player got to see them.

--Zetack

[beekeeper]

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Look at that first sentence: "Players are entitled to receive equal access to....another player's..." The dealer simply isn't a player. He's a past player, and may be a future player, but he isn't a current player.

You don't like that rule, fine, make whatever rule you want for your own game. But in most games you aren't going to get to see the cards if a non-player got to see them.

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Looks like we're arguing apples and oranges here, but I'll agree that your response more directly answers the OP's question as he asked it. If the OP is trying simulate a casino atmosphere, the busted-player-turned-dealer is no longer a "player" in the tournament.

So, if the OP is still watching this post, I would recommend that you make your own rule regarding "show one show all" because it's disadvantageous for all players to allow one player such beneficial information simply because he busted out before others. This information continues to inform that player beyond the scope of that particular tournament. I don't think making such a rule will affect your desire to simulate a casino-type atmosphere, especially b/c I can't imagine a dealer in a casino looking at a player's mucked cards.

[Snarf]

Alright...so best I can figure from everyone's response...

I don't think theres much disagreement -anymore- about the ACTUAL meaning of the show one/show all rule. That only applies to PLAYERS. Its important to remember that we're all friends and even when we muck big bluffs refusing to show - we'll frequently tell the people as soon as the tourney is over or the next day what we had in big hands. Its no secret to us how each other plays in most spots...at least its not to me as an observant player.

My best guess would be that while we DONT disagree on the ACTUAL meaning of 'show one show all' some of the posters here think that there should be an ADDITIONAL rule put in place forbidding ANYONE to look at mucked cards - in the tourney or no.

That makes a lot of sense to me and I agree that that rule would be necessary in most situations...just not between me and my friends. We don't care THAT much (with each other anyways) and our play isn't THAT much of a secret to each other.

If our game routinely involved several new players, this rule would have already been in place long ago.

On a side note, dealers in casinos will look from time to time...but they'd never let you catch them looking.

Scott Fischman used to deal and admitted to it.