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  #21  
Old 09-07-2005, 03:26 AM
tek tek is offline
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Default Re: So Why is Stealing Wrong Again?

I can't quote you chapter and verse, but I remember it from Confirmation class way back which was taught by the Rabbi's wife...
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  #22  
Old 09-07-2005, 03:26 AM
baggins baggins is offline
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Default Re: So Why is Stealing Wrong Again?

if you have no objective standard for morality, then it most certainly is not wrong. you may get punished for it, but that doesn't make it wrong.

did ever think of asking your neighbor for a little financial help?

why is it ok to steal from somebody who won't really miss the money?
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  #23  
Old 09-07-2005, 05:32 AM
David Sklansky David Sklansky is offline
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Default I Want Reasons!

Specifically reasons why the line should be drawn at the life or death point. And stop with the it's bad for society stuff. If you are poor and destined to remain so (as your children are as well), why should you give a hoot about that? Especially if your situation is incredibly unequal and due 100% to bad luck.
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  #24  
Old 09-07-2005, 06:35 AM
RJT RJT is offline
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Default Re: So Why is Stealing Wrong Again?

Without a belief that there is more to life than the here and now (there is a God/afterlife and reasons relative to such) I see no reason to not steal if one wanted to.

The only reasons not to would be for civil order.

I , especially given the fact that I have no children , wouldn’t give a hoot what the state of the world is after I am dead. If civil order started to decay, so what? I will be long gone by that time.

In fact, if there is no God, let’s get it over with and save future generations from having to deal with all the nonsense. Maybe, I am just one who likes to think that there must be more to it then this. Life is good, don't get me wrong. But, when people say (myself inlcuded) when things are good "it don't get much better than this" - well, it just ain't enough for me.
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  #25  
Old 09-07-2005, 08:13 AM
Darryl_P Darryl_P is offline
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Default Re: So Why is Stealing Wrong Again?

Where to draw the line?

I'd say wherever you want, keeping in mind there will be consequences you must deal with.

Imagine a scale from 0 to 100 which measures different stealing situations based on how OK it is (as an approximation we can use the percentage of people who think it's OK). Your two examples would probably be valued at 99.9 and 0.1.

You can choose whatever point you like as your threshold but then you must live with the consequences.

Maybe 20 is the level below which you will likely end up in prison if you do it with any regularity.

Maybe 50 is the level at which your actions will not be scolded too much by others, and you can get very rich (if you're also smart), but as time passes you will start getting nagging feelings of chronic discomfort, probably accompanied by physical ailments whose origin cannot be completely explained by medical science. You may also be exposed to threats (from certain groups whose average rating is much higher) that you will not be able to comprehend. In my book these are God's way of telling you you're not living your life at a high enough level in His eyes.

If you choose levels like 90 or higher, then you will probably not be very rich no matter how smart you are, but you will have good mental health, good prospects for physical health, and feel good about yourself overall -- again, the work of God.

It's an individual choice IMO and so I see no reason to look for THE level with which everyone agrees, apart from the fact that there isn't one anyway.

The Bible advocates being at a level of 100 and leaves it to you how close you want to try to get to that level.
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  #26  
Old 09-07-2005, 08:30 AM
Warren Whitmore Warren Whitmore is offline
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Default Re: So Why is Stealing Wrong Again?

During the presedential elections the 3 candidates views on this issue were quite different.

Bush: Lets keep health care the same. (Maintain current level of theft)

Kerry: Lets give everyone the same level of health care that the house and Senate enjoy. (Increase level of theft considerably)

Badrock: If I have $6000 in my safe that I plan to spend on health care and a burglar breaks in and steals it he has robbed me of my health.
If a tax agent charges me $6000 in taxes so that I can no longer afford health care the goverment is equally a burglar. (Decrease theft)

Being a libitarian I of course side with the last. This is by no means the norm however. Most people want theft in thier lives.

A good definition for money is "a future claim on other peoples goods and services." Now for sure the guy who is a millionaire who has $10 stolen is not going to affect his standard of living. The guy who stole the $10 from him is going to improve his standard of living quite a bit.

That is not the point however. That temporary rise in the average standard of living between the two is the wrong matrix to measure. It is the rising of the standard of living of everyone in the world that matters. That can only improve through trade and innovation. Theses are crushed through theft either through a government, church, or individual.
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  #27  
Old 09-07-2005, 10:20 AM
Cooker Cooker is offline
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Default Re: So Why is Stealing Wrong Again?

I believe that the laws against stealing and the attitude that stealing is wrong are propagated by those with lots of stuff to steal (i.e. the wealthy). As you know, I don't believe in right and wrong, so I have no problem with stealing on its own. However, I believe that the laws against stealing must have some utility. The US is a property based society and as such has been one of the most successful of all time. I think it would be hard to have a property based society where personal property has no protection under the law. So I would not likely support a repeal of all laws involving stealing. I think when people steal there is a simple cost benefit analysis done on whether or not they should steal at least subconciously. Is the risk of going of prison for x years worth the potential gain over what I could gain through socially acceptable means during those x years with some added consideration for immediate gratification? I think most thieves would answer this question yes if they could fully grasp the meaning.
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  #28  
Old 09-07-2005, 10:49 AM
SomethingClever SomethingClever is offline
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Default Re: So Why is Stealing Wrong Again?

I'd jack that bitch in a heartbeat.
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  #29  
Old 09-07-2005, 11:43 AM
Piers Piers is offline
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Default Re: So Why is Stealing Wrong Again?

[ QUOTE ]
What argument, other than it is against the law, makes it wrong for you to steal his money but not wrong for the desperate looters to loot?

[/ QUOTE ]

It feels wrong to steal his money but it does not feel wrong for the desperate looters to loot.
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  #30  
Old 09-07-2005, 02:06 PM
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Default Re: So Why is Stealing Wrong Again?

David, there is no such thing as right and wrong. Anyone can figure this out, if they think about it.
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