Keeping the Initiative (Stars 100 hand)

[beset7]

Good question. When I get home I'll parse my DB down. The problem with specific hands is that you get them so rarely even over big samples and the big pot factor is going to skew results. But, I can make some ranges based on "dryness" and we'll talk numbers.

I do think educating people about and giving advice that is motivated by two things (1) reducing variance (2) avoiding marginal/difficult situations prolly OK but people should know that they are leaving some dough on the table and when they get the stomach for it they should start thinking about how to go after it. The stuff adds up.

[BluffTHIS!]

Rempel,

Do we really need to parse a post and respond so that it is 2 screens high like in the politics forum? Regarding your question as to VPIP, I don't use poker tracker, so I have no way of knowing. However I certainly don't sit there waiting for aces and I raise preflop with a range of hands that others wouldn't. Nonetheless, I do adhere to the principle of 4 cards working together.

While it is true that a good player will be able to get out of potential trap situations postflop, it will still be a mistake for the vast majority of players to play that hand routinely. And avoiding playing lots of weak hands avoids getting into more postflop situations where you might make a mistake for your entire stack.

You must be the star pupil of one of our well-known posters here since you are expounding on his preflop starting hand decisions and position are so unimportant philosophy. He should be so proud.

[beset7]

I'm having major problems with PTO. In fact, it's almost totally inoperable.

TheRempel was kind enough to parse down his dry QQxx stats for our viewing pleasure. I believe this from 25plo up to 1/2 so the relevant stat is bb/hand and avg/hand as opposed to net. Obviously these are very small samples for these hands. You'll notice the vpip on them is 90%ish so position is being given no defference whatsoever.

I think my stats look very similar. Once I get the pokertracker people to figure out what the heck is going on I'll post mine if the thread hasn't died.

Once again, these are TheRempel's:

[BluffTHIS!]

Playing with worse players as is common at lower levels gives you a cushion for playing bad hands or playing bad but not worse than average for those tables (i.e. they never lay down middle/bottom set and always call with weak draws). I know some high stakes players who routinely play and even raise with hands like those, but they play exceedingly well post-flop. If you play that well post-flop, then keep doing what you're doing as long as it works.

Nonetheless, if your better opponents are playing 4 cards working together and you are not, then you are effectively playing handicapped in the game.

[jhall23]

Well this was a treat. Thought this thread was dead and all of a sudden it blew up. Not too often we get that in this forum. Lots of good stuff in here.

Myself, I have a lot less experience in this game then all of you at this point. I am getting pretty comfortable with this game now and feel that in a lot of the games I am playing against mostly weak players that I should be able to turn out a profit with this hand. There are certainly times I would fold this PF, but in most games I will call with it more then I will fold it. I have had a roll for the 100 game since I started playing PLO, however while I was getting used to the game I put a lot of time in the kiddie pool just getting a feel. So I am not overly concerned about the variance if I can turn a profit in the long run. I will remember to consider holding off on these type of hands when taking a shot at a higher limit in the future. In my limited experience in the Stars and Party 100 games I feel these hands will often be playable.

I can't really say if I am playing these well yet as my sample size is way to small. I've only got about 13-15,000 hans so far (With a full time job and girlfriend and other things it is hard to get tons of hands in) and on my laptop here at work with about 6,000 hands I only got QQrag 41 times which shows how much bigger the Rempels sample size must be. I was slightly good with KKrag and slightly down with QQrag (because of the hand posted here). Definetly something to keep an eye on as I get more hands in.

Heres what i think about the hand:
Preflop:
I would probably fold this hand UTG+1 7handed, but lets assume u call.
MP+1 calls (kindof surprising), Button Pots (not a surprise), fold, fold. So you think that MP+1 has a relatively decent hand and button hand ranges is high. If you're going to continue with this hand, throw in a re-pot. This will almost always get MP+1 to fold and possibly have button to fold (but probably not). Now you are only dealing with 1 person in ur position, you have more money in the pot and u have taken the lead.
Post-flop:
Scenario A: You just called preflop
This is a money flop for you, but I check it and hope for a c/r. This hand can get ugly real quick, so you want to either pot a ton of money in the pot or keep it small. By just betting out u build the pot, but not large enough, you then become essentially obligated to lead out on the turn and ur putting a lot of money in by the turn (essentially ur putting them all in) and u will have no idea where u r. If you dont get the c/r on the flop, you can make a smallish bet out on the turn (feeler bet to see where u r) or check it again. I know this seems like a weak/tight way to play it, but I really dont like betting out into this flop because it doesnt give u any information. (i dont know if chances of them folding though-- when MP calls u have to be worried and then button might call out of pot odds or something like that ... u just have no idea other than u can be in some real trouble on the turn)
Scenario B: You re-raised preflop
If the button calls u, basically saying AA,KK, JJ or something to that extent or even some low cards, you can pot the flop and not really be worried. He might fold or think that u r bluffing and repot or something like that. When the turn comes u can essentially put him all in and if he hit the straight u have redraws for the boat, but there is a good chance that he has 2pair or an overpair or 2pair+FD or FD+SD or something like that. I just think that the passive nature PF causes a lot of trouble post flop

With the permission of TheRempel, im curious as to how the big hands played out with these hands and if i could get some handhistories. I was just wondering where he made the big money. The thing that needs to be looked @ isnt what the VP$IP % is (being 90% doesnt matter), but where the big hands came from. If he plays the hands from UTG or UTG+1 but has only won/lost $4 doing that then it doesnt matter, if he won his big pots from LP. I am also curious as to how aggressive he played them from EP and LP.

[joewatch]

My stats for QQxx in MP (2-4 off the button)
Times 252
Win % 21.83
Net 317.8
Av/hand 1.26
PTBB/hand 0.63

[TheRempel]

I'm too busy to go through and sort out pokertracker at the moment, but my winrate is actually about even in early and LP with these hands, mostly because it's generally flop a set or fold regardless of position, especially with a raggy big pair.

[TheRempel]

[ QUOTE ]

Playing with worse players as is common at lower levels gives you a cushion for playing bad hands or playing bad but not worse than average for those tables (i.e. they never lay down middle/bottom set and always call with weak draws). I know some high stakes players who routinely play and even raise with hands like those, but they play exceedingly well post-flop. If you play that well post-flop, then keep doing what you're doing as long as it works.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, what high level games are you playing? And why would you be playing with better players? It's almost a certainty given how scared you are of putting money in post flop without the nuts or a twenty way double-triple nut draw, but jesus christ man, I and others are making money with these hands in EP, MP and LP. We have the stats to back it up.

In a game where you aren't often more than 60% to win post flop every little extra bet you can gain from these kinds of hands counts.

If I'm playing in a game where I know for certain my opponents are playing much 'better' starting hands than me on average and are passive enough to fold post flop without strong hands or strong draws, I am going to fold almost every hand in the first four seats and raise almost every hand in the last three, but I would probably find a better game first. If you think that all or even most of the players in any given higher level game play really strong coordinated hands and play well post flop you are delusional or you need to find a new site to play on / sweat games you are afraid to play in.