Unlucky or poor play?

shefhammer · #1 03-27-2005, 08:53 AM

I'm a Hold'em player who enjoys Omaha Hi/Lo to mix things up. This is only the $5 level but assume I'm playing pros for the purposes of discussion...

Party Poker Limit Omaha/8 Tourney, Big Blind t200 (3 handed) converter

Hero (t1889)
SB (t2139)
BB (t3972)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (3 SB, t600) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (1.50 BB, t600) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks.

River: (1.50 BB, t600) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, BB raises, Hero 3-bets, SB folds, BB caps, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.5 BB (t4200)

I checked my full-house on the turn to induce a bet on the river (I assume this play is good here? No danger of low hand taking half the pot, someone may hit a flush or straight, little chance of being outdrawn.). I intended to raise any river bet but perhaps I shouldn't have done so once the initial bet was raised? Was the river raise correct or should I have flat called it? I assume no-one folds this?!

I'm sure from the title of the post you can guess his hand. Results in white...

 BB shows 66xx for a better full-house.

Buzz · #2 03-27-2005, 11:17 AM

shefhammer - I haven't looked at the results. I'd guess from the betting that BB holds a pair of sixes and thus has made a better full house than you on the river.

Assuming I'm correct, would BB have folded an overpair on the turn? Hard to say for sure - but I think your best chance was to bet the turn.

You clearly don't have a three-bet on the river. Whether to call two bets or not is a tough decision and depends somewhat on the raiser.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

Matt Ruff · #3 03-27-2005, 11:59 AM

I think I would have bet the turn. Since there's no possibility of a low, a straight or flush draw might still decide to chase me to the river; hopefully the guy with the pocket pair won't.

As for the river -- it's tough to lay down a full house, but I'd seriously think about folding. The pot is tiny, and you don't have the nuts. Also, the SB is still to act behind you, so even if you want to make a crying call, you can't be sure that'll be the end of it.

-- M. Ruff

bodie · #4 03-27-2005, 12:44 PM

I agree with Buzz & Matt, your best chance would be to bet the turn and perhaps drive out the drawing players.
In Holdem it would be wonderful to have attained the full house that you did - however in O8 if I had your exact hand I would be worried the entire time because I have the weakest possible full house with that board.
Just as it's hard for me when I play HE to realize that people are betting and raising when they have nothing near the nuts, I think it can be a little difficult for HE players to realize that in O8, more times than not, someone does have the nuts and you have to play accordingly.
I just got back from playing HE in Las Vegas and I saw many players get entirely pissed off when their pocket Queens would get beaten by some weird inside straight - meanwhile I'm thinking - of course your hand lost, you had nothing against that board but a pair of Queens when I see a possible flush, straight, etc.
(!)

shefhammer · #5 03-27-2005, 01:25 PM

Thanks all for the replies

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As for the river -- it's tough to lay down a full house, but I'd seriously think about folding. The pot is tiny...

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The pot is 1400 by the time the action gets to me and is almost the same size as my stack!

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I think it can be a little difficult for HE players to realize that in O8, more times than not, someone does have the nuts and you have to play accordingly.

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I definitely have to come to terms with this.

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I agree with Buzz & Matt, your best chance would be to bet the turn and perhaps drive out the drawing players

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Do I want to drive out drawing players? Aren't they (most of the time) going to be drawing to inferior hands? Wouldn't a 400 bet on the turn may drive people out that would pay me off or bluff at the river.

bodie · #6 03-27-2005, 02:53 PM

Hi Shef,

When you ask "Do I want to drive out drawing players?", again if you are specifically talking about this hand, then my answer would be yes, because you have a vulnerable full house and you want to be thinking of protecting it.
As you can see, one of the drawing hands drew to a higher full house.
This goes back again to the concept of being aware in O8 that there usually is a nut hand out there, or a very high possibility of one.
If you have the nuts then you don't want to drive away any drawing hands.

Buzz · #7 03-27-2005, 07:35 PM

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Do I want to drive out drawing players?

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shefhammer - Yes. Once the board has paired, no decent player will be drawing to anything but a full house. I think you do want to drive out pairs higher than the pair on the board.

There are always six different possible full houses when the board has a pair.
(In addition, if you don't have a card the same rank as the pair, there's a possibility of quads, but that doesn't apply here).

There's a high probability of more than one full house when the board has a pair, if everyone stays for the river.

Your particular full house is simply not strong enough to slow play.

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Aren't they (most of the time) going to be drawing to inferior hands?

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If they are, then you want them to pay for drawing to these inferior hands, not have free rides with them.

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Wouldn't a 400 bet on the turn may drive people out that would pay me off or bluff at the river.

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It might. As it was, you gave your opponents a free roll to beat you. That's a nullo play.

This is Omaha-8. There is some bluffing, but not nearly as much as in Texas hold 'em. Depends on your opponents, but I generally wouldn't count on someone bluffing at the river here.

Buzz

Matt Ruff · #8 03-28-2005, 11:55 AM

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As for the river -- it's tough to lay down a full house, but I'd seriously think about folding. The pot is tiny...

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The pot is 1400 by the time the action gets to me and is almost the same size as my stack!

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Actually, I think it's 1800 by the time it gets to you...but it was only 600 at the start of the round, and the fact that it's tripled in size before you even have a chance to act is strong evidence that you're beat. Save your chips for a better spot.

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Do I want to drive out drawing players?

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On this board, yes.

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Aren't they (most of the time) going to be drawing to inferior hands?

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What Buzz said.

-- M. Ruff

shefhammer · #9 03-28-2005, 06:31 PM

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Once the board has paired, no decent player will be drawing to anything but a full house. I think you do want to drive out pairs higher than the pair on the board.

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This is Omaha-8. There is some bluffing, but not nearly as much as in Texas hold 'em.

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Thanks for the reply. I need to learn things like this otherwise I'll keep playing Hold 'em at an Omaha table and lose accordingly.

Jim Morgan · #10 04-19-2005, 04:16 AM

Nobody has mentioned 2 big mistakes you made earlier....

First: RAISE preflop! AJT2 is much stronger than most of the crap the blinds rate to have and getting either blind to fold gives you a much better overall situation. Ideally both will fold or one will defend with garbage. Overdefending the BB is a mistake that many players make.

Second: BET the flop! I know this flop looks scary, and to be sure top and bottom pair is no picnic, but the blinds checked! They probably did not hit this flop very well at all. Your 2 pair are quite likely the best and your opponents might not have much of a draw either. Any turn that does not help you is going to weaken your hand and put out many more draws. In this situation, this is the case for damn near ANY possible turn. BET!!! and pray they fold.

If check-raised, folding is probably the wisest course.

If an opponent has a draw, it is probably about 50-50, but if he is check-raising a made hand, you are probably far behind unless he somehow decided to check-raise 93, which seems more or less insane.

People often fail to see these situations where they are either 50-50 or way behind. This is why calling a large all in raise with 33 in holdem is a weak play. If your opponent has 2 high cards 75% of the time and an overpair the other 25% of the time, you will (on average) be behind, despite the small advantage you would have over hands like AK.

The tough decision will come on the turn when you don't fill up and you got called. Personally, I'd bet again on a low blank and check if something 8 or higher shows up.

And yes, betting the turn was necessary too. One point people have failed to mention is that WINNING THE POT IS MORE IMPORTANT IN TOURNAMENT PLAY. Winning 1000 in chips is NOT twice as good as winning 500, and the sin of converting a winner into a loser is magnified in the late rounds of a tournament.

About calling the raise.... I think it is a very bad call. Your raising opponent should be full. His failure to act earlier makes it seem like he caught a 6 or slowplayed pocket TT or 99. The risk/reward here is simple. If you call and win, you take a nice pot and a decent lead. If your call and lose, you are deeply wounded. The gain of winning the pot is not in balance with the danger. AND... you are probably beat. Raising... That is jut nuts.