low limit hold'em

[BBill]

I have a question that has been asked before, but I will ask it again because what I hear and what I see don’t mesh. The question is this: Are low-limit Hold’em games beat-able? I am going answer my own question and say no so I can pose another: What level can a solid, tight aggressive style win consistently at hold’em.
I have been playing seriously (almost daily) for 1 year. 99% of this play has been online and playing at the .50/1.00 – 1 /2 and some 2/4 limits. I have also played hundreds of low buy-in tourneys as well as about 10 live tourneys. I planned on 1 year to learn the basics a the micro-limits, have read many books and read 2+2 and other forums daily and now would like to go up in limits but what I see is not encouraging. I would like to start with 2/4 but it seems to be a battle with the rake and players that just want action and will play any cards. I was watching a 2/4 game a Party last night and 90% of the winning hands I noted at showdown were cards that I don’t play unless I’m in the blinds with no raise. Cards like Jxo 33, A3o, 10-5s, Kxo, Qxo, 95o and the list goes on. Those that played these cards would go from like $50.00 up to $150.00 and back down and back up they just play for action. There was a player I observed that folded most of his cards waiting for decent starters but when he played them one of the other 4 or 5 players with trash hands would stay till they hit on the river. I know this has all been said before, but when I read about people depositing 50.00 and turning it into a 4 figure bankroll I wonder if it is true or just a ploy to get more fish to deposit 50.00 to lose at the low limits? Sorry to say that and I am not directing this statement to anyone in particular. I am down about 200.00 for the year which I’m not complaining about, since poker is a very inexpensive hobby for me at this rate. But I say again, is it really possible to win at 2/4 consistently online or off ?

[Ed Miller]

But I say again, is it really possible to win at 2/4 consistently online or off ?

Yes, it is possible. You seem very focused on starting hands... as if playing the right cards is a through ticket to big bucks. If you do indeed play appropriately preflop, them my guess is that you are too loose postflop. Do you routinely call turn and river raises, not believing that your opponent could play the hand that he is representing? My guess is also that you play too passively postflop... failing to bet and raise on the expensive streets when you have the best hand. Do you routinely check down top pair on the river? Would you consider betting second or even third pair for value on the river against the right opponents? Do you buy lots of small pots in the tight-passive games with flop and turn bets on very little or nothing?

Of course, I have no idea how you play... but these are very common mistakes that 2+2ers who are struggling with the low limits make. Given your results, though, I can virtually assure you that there are significant holes in your game. Please post hands and participate in the discussion on hands others have posted. I have improved immensely in the seven months that I have been participating actively in this forum.

[ZManODS]

I find playing .50/1 to be extremely frustrating. Just like you said, there are like 80% seeing the flop and calling down to the river with nothing, and when you actually do get a good hand you are beat by a freak 58o. Where are you playing? Also you should consider not playing if the table doesnt look attractive to you. If you see a lot of aggression preflop and you just cant handle that type of play, go try to find a softer game.

[Homer]

I've been consistently beating the 2/4 game at Party for the past 5-6 months, to the tune of 1.5 BB/hr. So I would definitely say it can be done.

During this time I've had two 100 BB downswings and a few more 50+ BB downswings, so obviously there can be quite a bit of variance, even for someone who is a winning player.

Out of curiousity, how many hours have you played in the past year? Knowing this will help to more accurately determine how likely it is that you are going through a bad run versus the probability that you need to improve your game.

Good luck...

-- Homer

[Dentist]

Yeah, I'm starting to think the same thing about the games I play in at my B&M.

At hold 'em, there is a $4 rake up to 10% and a $1 stupid jackpot drop.

Sometimes I can get on fire and beat the game up pretty good because I feel I'm better than most players.

However, here's the tables I just can't beat:

- Any table with a maniac. The one guy changes the whole table so much and it is so volatile that I just can't crack the game.
- any table where there is little to NO selectivity to people's starting hands...
- collectively you're an underdog to the field. Even AA only wins something like 1/3 to 40% of the time....

What's funny is that the 6-12 game at my B&M is MUCH tighter and tougher, but I enjoy that game SO much more. No one plays crap like K 2 off or little suited connectors or any Ace.

I can respect when I have A J and flop an Ace and get beat by a better hand like AQ or AK. Or if someone has a nut flush draw (not just any lame flush) or if they flop a solid set.... I am comfortable knowing I'm BEAT.

But last night I was getting beaten on. My top pair rarely held up because I was getting licked on runner-runner flushes, inside straight draws, and the board pairing to give someone a set.....

And I hate that more than anything.

Maybe that's what is holding me back from beating low limit hold 'em.
- the bad beats and the maniacs do alter my state of mind, I've got to be tougher.

But I sure like the predictability and solid play of the 6-12 game.
I like matching wits with people, not spinning the proverbial poker roulette wheel to see who hits the best hand.

That's enough.....

[Robk]

Hey Bill, if 80% of the players are in there you want to be making hands that have one pair
hands drawing dead or practically dead. So the next time you get AJo, toss it in the muck.
And the next time you get AJs play. Play only pocket pairs and suited broadway hands. Now
when 6 people go to the river you're taking money away from them with a set or flush, and
they're taking (theoretical) money from each other with bottom or middle pair. You wont be
playing optimally, but I guarantee you'll win. If you want to learn to beat these games for the
max, you have to study hard. So you might as well study hard at beating tougher, higher
limit games instead, IMO.

Here's a favorite example of mine... "the point is when you get 5 or 6 callers... proceed
carefully."

You: AdKh Flop: Ks 8s 7c

Caller 1 -- 10h 9h
Caller 2 -- As 3s
Caller 3 -- 7s 5s
Caller 4 -- 6c 5h
Caller 5 -- Kc Qh
Caller 6 -- Td 8d

How many turn cards do you like??

[BBill]

Thanks for the input - points well taken: I've got holes in my game for sure and should post more hands and participate. I'm not sure how many hours I've played, guess I should. I did get CPA to record sessions but have not kept up on it. I would guess about 300 hrs in ring games and 800 in tournaments - ball park. I'm now interested in developing my ring game though. I've deposited at party, dynamite, true, planet and paradise and propoker(for the bonus lol) and played all the sites that gave a free bonus. I prefer the overall atmosphere / games at party for ring and Dynamite for tourny's
Noted: table selection is a priority and adjusting play / starting cards is a must. Okay so it can be done ? What is an acceptable deposit to start at 2/4 online. ?

[ZManODS]

What is an acceptable deposit to start at 2/4 online. ?


I would say at least $150 if you want to consider playing for awhile. Watch yourself that you dont go on tilt if you are down, hand selection is vitale, just be patient. When you do have a good hand and hit it on the flop, play aggresively!

[Bob T.]

Hi BBill.

First thing that you have to understand, is that you are beating the game right now. If you are down $200 after a year of playing daily, you certainly paid much more than $200 in rake, so you collected nearly as much from your opponents as you paid in rake. Congratulations. You just need to play a little bit better, and your hobby will be one with a positive cash flow.

This last year, you paid about 1 big bet per week to play 2-4 holdem. You have to be able to find at least one place each week, where you could charge your opponents 1 more bet, or you could save 1 bet, and all of a sudden, you are a breakeven player. Many of the situations where you could be more profitable, occur nearly every session, and if you find and exploit those, suddenly, instead of being a negative .05/BB per hour player you could be a positive .5 to 1.5 BB per hour player.

Post hands where you are unsure of what to do, or unhappy with the result, participate in the discussions here, and have fun.

Some players will say the rake is prohibitive at the 2-4 level, and it is in many cardrooms, but online, it is only 5%, and given the level of the competition, it isn't unreasonable.

Somewhere in this thread, you asked what is a reasonable bankroll for online games. I think a minimum would be about 100 Big bets, or $400 for 2-4. 100 big bet swings, are unfortunately fairly common, so I like keeping my total bankroll at about 300 to 500 big bets for the limit I am playing at, and I keep at least 100 big bets on each site that I play at. I bought in for $200 on paradise a little over 2 years ago, (for the third time [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img] ), and built my bankroll playing .5/1.00. I never had to rebuy after that [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] , and I have used my paradise bankroll to buy in on the other sites. Now I play on five sites up to 5-10, and also live up to 8-16, and I cash out a little each month, and my bankroll is still growing.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[Ed Miller]

Play only pocket pairs and suited broadway hands.

If the game is passive and loose... you can play far more hands than this profitably.