JJ vs Thinking Player.

macdaddy991 · #1 08-01-2005, 03:17 AM

SB has shown himself to be a thinking player. Moderately tight, agressive on TP but also when a scare card hits, he can spring to life. The turn brought a card that could cripple my hand. Since he was aggressive, he would 3 bet TP or the flush. My line was to raise and call a 3 bet.

Thoughts?
Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 4 folds, Hero raises, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (7 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (5 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises, SB calls.

River: (9 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 9 BB

kapw7 · #2 08-01-2005, 03:37 AM

Bet the river

aK13 · #3 08-01-2005, 03:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Since he was aggressive, he would 3 bet TP or the flush. My line was to raise and call a 3 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

These two sentences don't make any sense.

I don't get the turn raise.

I'd rather call/call for the same price.

EDIT: To elaborate...his turn donk is severely weak or he plans to bet/3bet. If he's bluffing, your raise is only making him fold. He's not folding a better hand to the raise.

moot · #4 08-01-2005, 03:52 AM

I agree that you should probably bet the river.

If he's an intelligent and aggressive player, there's very few hands that he could be going for a check raise with, since he likely would have just 3 bet the turn (being an aggressive player), instead of going for a tricky and pointless river check raise.

So it's almost certain he wasn't betting a turned flush, because he would have simply 3 bet the turn and led out the river. So you don't really have to be worried about getting check-raised on the river by a flush.

The kings a bit worrisome, but if he's aggressive there's a decent chance he simply would have 3 bet the turn. Unless he's now afraid you have a better king. And if that's the case he probably won't try for the check-raise on the river, still being somewhat afraid of a better king (though yes, the chances of you having one are less, due to the two Ks on the board).

I also think a smart and aggressive player would usually just bet out on the river he did, in fact, have a king (and felt it was the best hand, because he'd be too worried of you checking behind). Since he didn't bet out the river, he probably doesn't have a king.

Based on the play of this hand I can't really put the villian on the hand that beats you, and I don't see one that he would check-raise with, so I think a river bet is in order (since I still think there are a fair amount of losing hands he might call with).

EDIT == Oh, and I also agree with ak13.

Given the way you played the hand I'd bet the river, but I agree with ak13 that the best line would probably be call the turn, call the river (and bet the river if he checks).

macdaddy991 · #5 08-01-2005, 04:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Since he was aggressive, he would 3 bet TP or the flush. My line was to raise and call a 3 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

These two sentences don't make any sense.

I don't get the turn raise.

I'd rather call/call for the same price.

EDIT: To elaborate...his turn donk is severely weak or he plans to bet/3bet. If he's bluffing, your raise is only making him fold. He's not folding a better hand to the raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good replies are the reasons that I post hands like this. I think in this hand I got a little FPS. I have been working on making ajustments based on indivudal players and overdid myself here.

GTSamIAm · #6 08-01-2005, 04:34 AM

Bet the river. It's likely he has something like T9s and will call to catch a bluff. But if he's as smart as you say he is, he's already marked you TAG; he's folding to a river bet with a ten and check-raising you with a K.

POKhER · #7 08-01-2005, 07:09 AM

Tricky, I dont know if i like the turn raise.

Two reasons: If he has a low flush, He may be scared you have higher one. (BUT I DONT PUT HIM ON A FLUSH).

If he has a king, He is now scared you have a flush and your flop bet was "To fill the pot".

OR he puts you on overcards and you hit your king but he tried to "bluff the scare card".

I'd probably call the bet, and check the river(If he checked it).

Dont see him folding a flush to a raise, and i dont see him folding a king...

Take cheap showdown, Win a bit/Lose less to a flush/Trips.

jrz1972 · #8 08-01-2005, 07:49 AM

I don't like the turn raise for the reasons others have noted. Granted, villain could be semi-bluffing a one-card flush draw or he could be playing a T kind of strangely, but most hands that call your raise will have you beaten.

I strongly disagree with those telling you to bet the river. Assuming villain is competent, which is our read, the only thing that he might call with that you can beat is a T. Every other logical hand for villain either folds (bluff, one card flush draw) or beats you (K, flush, two pair).

kapw7 · #9 08-01-2005, 08:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the turn raise for the reasons others have noted. Granted, villain could be semi-bluffing a one-card flush draw or he could be playing a T kind of strangely, but most hands that call your raise will have you beaten.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? He is not going to fold his flush draw. Not even a pair of tens.

[ QUOTE ]
I strongly disagree with those telling you to bet the river. Assuming villain is competent, which is our read, the only thing that he might call with that you can beat is a T. Every other logical hand for villain either folds (bluff, one card flush draw) or beats you (K, flush, two pair).

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't know unless you bet. He can call a lot of times with tens or lower pair. He doesn't know we have jacks and the 2 Kings on board make it less likely we have a King. We can be betting a busted draw or A-high as far as he is concerned. The pot is big enough so he (correctly) calls

If he had a flush he would 3-bet (for value and protection of his flush) unless he had the nut flush but then he would definitely bet the river. We don't fear 2-pair as it is counterfeited. Only concern is trip Kings that he MIGHT check-call with, fearing a flush. Again this is a bit less likely (2 kings already on board)

And who knows he might even call with his A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] high.

McGahee · #10 08-01-2005, 08:58 AM

Something tells me he's not that great of a player based on his PF call from the SB and then flush card donk.
If you know he likes to bet draws and you don't think he'd bet with a K here then your turn raise is fine, but there's no reason to call a 3-bet.
I think the river is close. He kinda needs to have A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T to make a bet profitable. It's more likely he was just testing the waters with a mediocre K on the turn though and is scared you have the flush or AK, so I like the check.