Limping QQ under the gun

[akishore]

(cross-posted in MHS NL)

Hi,

I am a member of another poker forum, and I posted a very controversial hand on there that generated a bunch of heated debate.

I claimed that in a deep stack no limit game, it is standard for me to limp a hand as big as QQ under the gun.

Before I divulge into reasons, I just want to hear some thoughts here. Can this be right? Or is it always wrong? etc.

Thanks,
Aseem

[PoBoy321]

It's all table dependent and the specifics of the hand matter a great deal.

[akishore]

[ QUOTE ]
It's all table dependent and the specifics of the hand matter a great deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi PoBoy,

This is part of my original question.

If this can be correct, under what conditions can you think of where this can be correct?

Aseem

[Bco1/75]

Depends on what type of table you are at. Agressive table, sometimes with KK or AA hoping for a raise in a later position. I think it is asking for trouble with QQ or less.

So what is your play when you limp with QQ and there is 4 other limpers and the flop is Axx? You asking for A7 to take your money.

[akishore]

[ QUOTE ]
Depends on what type of table you are at. Agressive table, sometimes with KK or AA hoping for a raise in a later position. I think it is asking for trouble with QQ or less.

So what is your play when you limp with QQ and there is 4 other limpers and the flop is Axx? You asking for A7 to take your money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Bco,

I never said that I limped with the intent to reraise. I do that with AA/KK, but not *necessarily* with QQ. I don't mind seeing an unraised flop with QQ here. Sometimes, I will limp-reraise QQ here depending on the quality of the raiser, his stack, my ability to isolate him, etc.

As for the four-way unraised Axx flop, yes I realize that happens sometime, but why is this terrible? I can check/fold pretty easily.

Aseem

[orange]

So what your mainly saying is that you play QQ for set value, and basically no different than 77,99, etc. right?

[akishore]

[ QUOTE ]
So what your mainly saying is that you play QQ for set value, and basically no different than 77,99, etc. right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good question.

Although it seems like that, the answer is no.

Mostly, it's just that I have a huge appreciation for position, moreso in deep stack poker. I hate playing big pots with vulnerable hands out of position.

I would much rather play a small pot here and check/fold "bad" flops and play the "good" ones. The good ones obviously include a set, but they can also include ragged flops (with or without an overcard), etc.

So no, not just for set value.

Aseem

[orange]

The problem with playing QQ for no raise is essentially the same problem AK has- any 1 pair hand has little chance of winning in large, multi-way pots.

Take in account the discussion over AK in a recent thread. The amount of hands your opponents can hold are easily disguised, and you will often be in the dark upon their holdings (being OOP with a hand that improves 1-5 by the river). How do you like any Ace, any King, or basically ATC having a good chance of outdrawing you?

So do you play very passively with the hand postflop? I can only see that happening, as you say you don't like being OOP in a larg(er) pot. To me, defining my hand means more to me than pot control/position. Do you raise with AK in this spot?

Edit: the topic title AKo in NL? by DWwarrior sort've reminds me of this.

[akishore]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you like any Ace, any King, or basically ATC having a good chance of outdrawing you?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't mind, precisely because I have much less interest in this smaller pot, since I'm out of position.

Again, it's not really about winning the hand or the pot; it's about winning money, right?

Since I play queens differently *postflop* by limping them preflop, it stands that I believe I make more money in this way than I do by raising preflop and playing them "standard" postflop.

In other words, I don't mind if any two cards outdraw me. I would mind much more so if I had raised preflop.

Just to reemphasize, this is precisely for deep stacks that I'm talking about. If I have 50 bb or 60 bb in front of me, I am clearly raising preflop.


[ QUOTE ]
So do you play very passively with the hand postflop? I can only see that happening, as you say you don't like being OOP in a larg(er) pot. To me, defining my hand means more to me than pot control/position. Do you raise with AK in this spot?

[/ QUOTE ]
I tend to play passively on most hands postflop when I'm out of position. This might be a pot limit omaha symptom, but I tend to respect position to a huge extent when it comes to big-bet poker. I don't mind letting my opponent retain the lead; this minimizes and possibly even negates his positional advantage in some cases.

To answer your question, yes I limp AK here too. I limp AA and KK here too, but for a different reason--just to be able to reraise. If no one raises behind me and it's a limped flop, it's not a disaster; I just play the hand differently. That doesn't mean I check/fold when I don't hit a set, but obviously I keep in my mind that the dynamics of the hand are much different.

My point is just that I am extremely tight out of position, both in the hands I play and the hands I raise (which is usually 0%, with the exception of those for deceptive purposes).


[ QUOTE ]
Edit: the topic title AKo in NL? by DWwarrior sort've reminds me of this.

[/ QUOTE ]
I will look at it. Thanks!


Aseem

[mjm]

The fact that I am OOP makes me want to play my good hands more strongly pre-flop. I want to define my hand. I will also be betting the flop strongly and will then evaluate my postion after the responce to my flop bet.

I don't like to limp with QQ in early position, AA-KK I will for variation, and will be hoping to get to re-raise pre-flop.

But QQ is too good and too vunerable IMO. I am not playing QQ for set value.