Did I cost myself money?

RollaJ · #1 12-23-2002, 09:29 AM

Ok here's the situation Im at a 4-8 with a rather tight passive table. Im stuck $160 after about 11 hours of play over 2 days. I decide Im going to leave if I lose the balance of $40 in front of me. The hand...
I pick up 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] in the small blind, 4 limpers to me I complete, BB Raises(damn) Im all limpers call so I call as well.
Flop comes Q [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] (YAY!)
So I know preflop raiser will raise because he probably has a pair or A-K (those seem to be his standards) I go ahead and bet out, he raises all fold to the double bet. River and turn are rags I win he shows me the rockets.... He then tells me I shouldnt have bet the flop because I could have drawn more people in for more money If I let him do the betting. My thinking was that with 222 any player with a pair can draw out on me to make a higher set or make a straight or get a draw to one which they would then have correct odds to draw to+ there was already $48 in the pot which is a nice amount (even more so when your stuck and catching crap cards hour after hour).
So did I make the wrong play or was the guy just bitter because I cracked his aces with deuces [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

MtSmalls · #2 12-23-2002, 12:43 PM

I would go with the latter rather than the former. With that many callers you have to bet out and try (usually in vain) to protect your bottom set. Even more so, if you know the BB is going to raise, and you get more callers in the face of the two-bet, you have to do some careful thinking. Its a rainbow flop, but a 10-Js might be hiding out there. I would have played the same way, though I might have three-bet the flop.

RollaJ · #3 12-23-2002, 12:54 PM

I didnt say it because it was immaterial but I did three bet the flop and kept betting the entire way Once we were heads up and he didnt 4 bet the flop I knew he had an over-pair and no A or K came off so I had no reason to slow down

RollaJ · #4 12-23-2002, 04:28 PM

this is a question of fundamentals, someone else must have an opinion??? Or is everyone away on vacation?

sleepyjoe · #5 12-23-2002, 04:43 PM

no doubt you cost yourself $. This seems like a perfect spot to checkraise the flop. You know the person immediately after you is going to bet. A whole bunch of people will call his bet, and after you raise he may reraise again. This will cause a lot of people who called for the one bet to fold in the face of two more. Even if they don't fold, any pairs are on a two-outer. I think you HAVE to checkraise this flop.

pudley4 · #6 12-23-2002, 05:00 PM

I think this is a spot where you can check-raise the flop.

1-There is only one real draw out there (JT).
2-You know BB is going to bet, so you won't be giving any free cards.
3-He sounds like the type to 3-bet your check-raise, so you will not only get an extra sb from the limpers, you'll also be forcing them to call a double-bet later in the round.
4-If anyone manages to stay in to see the turn, the BB will most likely also raise your turn bet to try to get them out.
5-Your hand is much stronger than if you had Q9 (2-pair, where you would normally bet out), so you can afford to try to build up the pot.

bernie · #7 12-23-2002, 05:47 PM

personally, i wouldve liked the raise behind me...

c/r the flop. youd be suprised at how many may leave dead money in the pot...JT will call anyway...

or check/call the flop and c/r the turn...actually, the latter, with a shortstack, is what id be inclined to do...itd be very likely the raiser will bet again on the turn

b

Ed Miller · #8 12-23-2002, 06:19 PM

I think you played it fine. The pot was a decent size preflop (6 BB), and you had many opponents. The Q-9 on board also allows for several gutshot draws with common limping hands. It is best to bet and hope for a raise from preflop raiser to face the limpers with calling two bets.

Ed Miller · #9 12-23-2002, 06:21 PM

BTW, against most players, after the pot is headsup... you should consider smooth-calling the flop raise and checkraising the turn or even the river. (Actually, in this case.. waiting for the river is probably best).

mauisupaman · #10 12-23-2002, 06:53 PM

Rollaj,
With 6 people seeing the flop for a double bet each the pot already seems to be a good size. Betting out with the intention of having the BB raise and knock out the rest of the field as well as getting the pot heads up sounds like a good idea to me. If other players are on weak draws such as gut shots or even other pocket pairs, I think you want to put as much pressure as you can on them and make them pay the maximum price to draw. There is nothing worse than flopping a set, letting people see cards for cheap and having a 4 or 2 outer beat you on the end.

Instead of thinking that you may have cost yourself money I think you did your best on the flop to protect the money that you already have. I'd be happy to win a pot of that size with a set everytime.

Also, even though you weren't interested with your play on all streets after it was heads up I think you did cost yourself some money in that aspect. Smooth calling the raise on the flop, check raising the turn, and betting out on the river may have made a little extra money.
A hui hou,
Adam