AA and KK are my biggest losers at Stars 100NL

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]

When i've got KK UTG i'll limp reraise with it generally or i'll make a bigger opening raise to try to fold out trash hands.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like someone is bitter about some recent bad beats...

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the turn hard, if you get called check/call1/2 pot or less river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why? With this board, a healthy bet on the flop tells him if he's beat or not. Then, you want him to get even more agressive after the flush card comes? If the guy wasn't there yet, he sure as hell is there now. In fact, all the guy needs is the bare ace of clubs and he can push now and make your decision very difficult and you just wasted a bunch of money. With a board like this, it's better to be conservative with the kings in EP.

[Proofrock]

[ QUOTE ]
w/o a read i c/c turn, and c/f river...

[/ QUOTE ]

To me this line seems even worse than my crappy line. If my plan is to c/c, c/f, why not just c/f the turn?

[Bukem_]

No, your line is much worse.

Compare how much info this guy has about the strength of your hand vs how much you know about his.

[Proofrock]

[ QUOTE ]
I really can't think of any spot where 1/3 pot bet on the turn is optimal.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that the 1/3 pot bet on the turn isn't optimal, though there are times when I do this (for example, this is a line I *rarely* take here if I had the king of clubs, since Villain is passive and even if he calls I have given myself decent odds to hit a flush).

Villain has shown himself to be loose passive and not throw in many (well, any) raises if somebody has bet before him, so I figure if I bet and he raises, he's ahead and I insta-muck. If I bet and he calls, he's probably still behind, but I'm still not too excited about inflating the pot.

I guess the trouble I have is this: I don't want to inflate the pot too much, especially since one of the worst cards I could expect hit on the turn, but I have no reason to believe that I'm beat yet. Checking says to everybody: take this pot away from me. Betting 2/3+ pot makes the pot bigger and harder to get away from -- if he calls the turn, what do i do? Betting 1/2 pot seems best to me, though I have to worry about how a thinking player would interpret that bet (I have no reason to believe that loose/passive calling station is really a great thinking player).

The 1/3 pot bet was probably influenced by my recent bad run with big pairs and the scary board -- it was too timid, but I also don't think checking is optimal, nor betting more than 1/2 pot.

[Proofrock]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold the river, and dont bet it and then fold ... check and then fold.

The flush is there, full house is there, and a straight is there. You beat none of that. In fact, your bets make it pretty clear that you dont beat anything, yet you still call the minraise.

If AA and KK are your biggest losers then just push all-in preflop ... you wont fail to make more money that you currently are ... and you might be surprised at the results

[/ QUOTE ]

(1) I'm not open-pushing KK UTG for 150BB.
(2) I do beat 99, JJ, QQ, A8, any single high club. All of these check behind or call a small bet except for a high club, which will either give up or bet the river if checked to.
(3) The flush is there, but the only straight that is there is 69 or J9 -- both possibilities, but they seem unlikely to me. I would have heard from 69 sooner, and though J9 is double gutted, I would expect it to be suited (giving it the flush on the turn) or to *not* raise me on the river, but to throw out a value bet if I check.

Any raise bigger than a minraise I fold -- in fact, I should have folded to this minraise, but then I thought, "hmmm, 5.5 to 1 -- I may be ahead 1 time in 6, right?" probably not. I imagine I'm ahead at best 1 time in 12.

[wdeadwyler]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bet the turn hard, if you get called check/call1/2 pot or less river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why? With this board, a healthy bet on the flop tells him if he's beat or not. Then, you want him to get even more agressive after the flush card comes? If the guy wasn't there yet, he sure as hell is there now. In fact, all the guy needs is the bare ace of clubs and he can push now and make your decision very difficult and you just wasted a bunch of money. With a board like this, it's better to be conservative with the kings in EP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Being called on this flop gives me no idea where I am. He could be drawing to a MYRIAD of hands or be way behind. This is TOUGH spot for KK.

[niko421]

The fold on the river is tough... T8 is also a likely holding, as if JJ/TT/99/88 ... KK and QQ probably would push sooner. 2 pair is very likely holding. I am aww struck by how much credit we give to oppenents.

I think I bet full pot or more on the scary board (pay for his draw). I get called, I either Bet pot (or whatever your norm is.... don't fluctuate your bets, except when I am at the table). The villian could have a huge amount of hands AT is another one, w Ac and figures he just hit top pair. The call is tough on the min raise, but I think 1 in 5 is fair to say your ahead, not 1 in 12. I always raise more out of position, then in position, so pre flop I go $5-6.

[Proofrock]

[ QUOTE ]
No, your line is much worse.

Compare how much info this guy has about the strength of your hand vs how much you know about his.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fine, he has more info about my hand and I know less about his. How does c/c, c/f improve this?

(1) If Villain is drawing, he gets infinite odds to hit (though I guess if my plan is to c/f any river, this doesn't matter?)
(2) If Villain is ahead, I put money in on the turn with the sole intention of folding the river if i don't catch my 2 outer (bad).
(3) If Villain is behind but for some reason decides to read my turn & river checks as weakness (which of course would be crazy to do), I call the turn with the sole intention of folding the river.
(4) I have no additional information about his hand, and now he perceives my hand to be weak. This just compounds the problem.

With this line I let Villain off the hook with drawing hands, and I let him bet me out with hands that I'm ahead of, but instead of just folding to a bet on the turn I'm willing to add a little to the pot before folding on the river? Doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not saying 1/3 pot is a good turn bet. I agree it sucks. But I don't think c/c, c/f is better.

[Bukem_]

[ QUOTE ]
The fold on the river is tough... T8 is also a likely holding, as if JJ/TT/99/88 ... KK and QQ probably would push sooner. 2 pair is very likely holding. I am aww struck by how much credit we give to oppenents.

I think I bet full pot or more on the scary board (pay for his draw). I get called, I either Bet pot (or whatever your norm is.... don't fluctuate your bets, except when I am at the table). The villian could have a huge amount of hands AT is another one, w Ac and figures he just hit top pair. The call is tough on the min raise, but I think 1 in 5 is fair to say your ahead, not 1 in 12. I always raise more out of position, then in position, so pre flop I go $5-6.

[/ QUOTE ]

River is a clear fold. Look at the action. This fish is a weak, loose, passive player. He isn't bluffing, and he isn't raising with a hand that can't at least beat trip sevens. Its a milking bet.