1st hand Empire $100, TPTK

[pokerstudAA]

This is an interesting hand - I have spent a few minutes thinking about it. This is the first hand of the tournament, right? We know absolutely nothing about the opponent or his style.

[ QUOTE ]

are we really concerned about the flush draw? what do you think he called the flop with?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it came runner runner it is not very likely. What kind of hands do people limp preflop/call a raise and then check call that flop? Mabye two big clubs...K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] You have the Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] so the narrows those big club hands...He might have a pair below the Q but higher than 5 - TT, JJ, 88, 99 are all quite possible. He could just have big unsuited cards QK, QT, QJ for TPGK. This is the hardest to figure out with any sort of reads.

Once he calls the flop bet he might be slowplaying a set of 2's or 5's or a big pair AA, KK. These are all unlikely. AA KK - would raise pf. Sets might play the same way here - but I would expect a smaller river bet. Once again no reads on how the opponent plays.


[ QUOTE ]

why is calling the river better than raising? 22/55 are possible, but not that likely, especially because many people fold those in EP. AA/KK are possible trap hands. what else are you afraid of? on the other hand, KQ/99/etc will often feel committed and put in the rest.

[/ QUOTE ]

We have no idea what he has. The flop call was scary and the river bet was a huge pot size bet. Even if his bet looks like he does not want to be called - I think the raise accomplishes very little. A raise will force him to get away from his worse hands and call with his good ones. Pushing the river could easily result in no extra chips for you and high risk of loss to his good holdings. You checked the turn to induce the bluff - right? Looks like it worked nicely. Calling is the only plan here.

[ QUOTE ]
I still bet 200-325 on the turn. -
can you elaborate?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my pot....I have a good hand. I would bet alot of hands with that turn. AND - No free cards. It is the 1st hand and I want to pick up some small low risk pots.


If you check the turn you are not forcing him to make a mistake. I guess the benefit of checking is that he might make a bigger mistake on the river. The problem is it gives you no information.

[schwza]

bump for the evening crowd.

push or call river?

I play on Empire..

I definitely just flat call. You win 80% of the time. I'm with everyone else that you messed up by checking the river. Your saving grace is if you lose, you can still battle back. Empire is such a slow moving MTT structure, with a few breaks you can be back in it. Especially in the Happy Hour $100 10k guranteed. There are normally only around 70 people in it. I final table it at least once a week.

[Stipe_fan]

[ QUOTE ]
Why check the turn, and lose control of the pot?

Nick


[/ QUOTE ]


Exactly, this is the first hand so you obviously have no history with your opponent. When you checked the turn, you didn't define your hand or find out where you were in the hand. Now, he probably thinks you bet with air on the flop and decided to make a play at the pot with almost anything.

I would bet the turn, say 250-300 and check behind. If he has a great hand, he will full expect you to bet the river. You can check it down and hopefully take it down.

Stipe

[schwza]

this is definitely the most frustrated i've been with a hand post. i don't mean to direct this specifically to you, stipe, but to this thread in general.

so many people said to bet the turn and gave no coherent reason whatsoever.

here's stipe's rationale for why i should've bet:

[ QUOTE ]
When you checked the turn, you didn't define your hand or find out where you were in the hand. Now, he probably thinks you bet with air on the flop and decided to make a play at the pot with almost anything.


[/ QUOTE ]

that's the whole reason i checked the turn! bahhhhhhhh!

i also already gave an argument for why i checked the turn in the top of the thread:

[ QUOTE ]
i checked the turn because i thought villain was drawing to 2-3 outs and he'd pay off a small river bet with a hand like 77/99 but would fold the turn. also there's some chance he has air like AJ and will bluff the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

and no one responded to it, instead just saying "i agree with everyone else. bet the turn. NO FREE CARDS. loud noises."



i push, villain shows 3c4c. no one even mentioned the hand, which is not suprising because only a couple people bothered to mention any hands.

if i repost this in 3 months and ask sossman to respond that he likes the turn check, what do you think the thread will look like?

blech.

[Roman]

Pushing this river is a big mistake, pot sized bets like this are usually monsters or air. If he has 99 or whatever, he will most likely block bet and see a showdown cheaply.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Pushing this river is a big mistake, pot sized bets like this are usually monsters or air. If he has 99 or whatever, he will most likely block bet and see a showdown cheaply.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a good point. durron made it earlier, and it's something i didn't consider but should've.

[intheflatfield]

Given the way you played. The call is obvious, but I'm more concerned about the timing of the play itself. I think you will find that people have much broader starting requirements on the 1st hand of a tourny, ie small-mid conncectors, suited or not, s-m pair etc. than would be the case on any given random hand.

I bet the turn, because there is enough in the pot to take it down now, and I think I've got the best hand. If he is drawing he's doing so incorrectly. This is not the time to be slowpaying, especially given the somewhat coordinated nature of the board at the turn.

My criticism isn't your line, but the timing therof.

I often times will check the turn there also. With Party and Empire tourneys only starting with t1000 its very common to have to risk all of your chips early. Because of this the check on the turn is a good play. It induces a ton of river bluffs. However he could have been checkraising the turn with some type of set so I think a smooth call is in order here. I really hate when i post a hand and people tell me how to play other streets differently when its obvious that isnt what the post is asking.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
I really hate when i post a hand and people tell me how to play other streets differently when its obvious that isnt what the post is asking.

[/ QUOTE ]

i disagree. i thought that the turn check was a fairly common play, but in retrospect i think that what i thought was interesting (the river) should be a call, but the turn is very interesting.