Two Plus Two Older Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Older Archives > Limit Texas Hold'em > Mid-High Stakes Shorthanded

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-29-2005, 02:49 AM
mmcd mmcd is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 441
Default Live hand: Bottom pair, ugly river

5 handed 75/150.

UTG who is a so-so player but always thinks I'm making moves on him opens. I've been beating him up pretty good FWIW. I call in the bb with A5o.

Flop:

9 7 5 r.

I check, he bets, I call.

Turn:

9 7 5 T

I check, he bets, I raise, he quickly (and somewhat defiantly) calls.

River:

9 7 5 T J

I check, he bets very quickly, I beat him in the pot.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-29-2005, 03:27 AM
Alobar Alobar is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Tempe, AZ
Posts: 795
Default Re: Live hand: Bottom pair, ugly river

If you are going to call a river bet, you are much better of betting it yourself here. Why let AK/Q (the only 2 hands you beat) off the hook and give a chance to check behind? Its also really doubtful he checks behind better hands as he thinks you are pushing him around, so he will be value betting much more "defiantly".
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-29-2005, 04:30 AM
mmcd mmcd is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 441
Default Re: Live hand: Bottom pair, ugly river

[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to call a river bet, you are much better of betting it yourself here. Why let AK/Q (the only 2 hands you beat) off the hook and give a chance to check behind? Its also really doubtful he checks behind better hands as he thinks you are pushing him around, so he will be value betting much more "defiantly".

[/ QUOTE ]

AK/AQ or any Ax pretty much require a river bet by him given how the board developed. I think when I check the river given the action thus far, it's pretty much impossible for those hands to win a showdown (if they were good, I would have bet). I also don't think he's capable of making a really thin value bet either. He'd probably bet a T if he somehow didn't 3-bet the turn with it, and obviously he'd value bet KJ/QJ/etc., but I really don't think he'd go any thinner than that.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:55 AM
goofball goofball is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 43
Default Re: Live hand: Bottom pair, ugly river

If you didn't think he'd go thinner than that then why did you call the river bet? I think he checks behind with AK/AQ because if it's good you're folding and if it's no good you'r enever folding ever.


I think you can't let him off AK for zero river bets and you should bet the river. You can fold to a raise here so there's no reason to be scared of betting.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-29-2005, 12:52 PM
Alobar Alobar is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Tempe, AZ
Posts: 795
Default Re: Live hand: Bottom pair, ugly river

[ QUOTE ]

AK/AQ or any Ax pretty much require a river bet by him given how the board developed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I very much doubt hes going to "bluff" with AK/Q, he knows you are calling, so he checks them behind, any other Ax he has, also has you beat. So to me it still seems like you are a bigger dog calling, than you are getting called.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-29-2005, 01:10 PM
disjunction disjunction is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 79
Default Re: Live hand: Bottom pair, ugly river

You don't give a preflop read. I think that the turn c/r and the river call go hand-in-hand, you think AK and AQ are a significant part of his range. The only way to c/r the turn and not call the river are if lots of hands with 2-4 (A2, 22, etc) are part of his range, no?

But if his range is fairly large preflop, as it should be, and isn't likely to contain 2-4, I don't think I like the turn c/r on this board. Given the turn c/r, I fold unless he is too tight preflop.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-29-2005, 02:37 PM
TStoneMBD TStoneMBD is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Rome, NY
Posts: 268
Default Re: Live hand: Bottom pair, ugly river

i dont really like the turn checkraise against this guy. you said he thinks youre making moves on him so hes not folding a better hand for sure. all that will happen is that you checkraise the turn and checkcall the river as you did losing 3 bets instead of just 2. i dont see what checkraising the turn accomplishes other than getting him to fold a 6 outter (although notice you do have an ace kicker so it will often times be a 3 outter). the times he does have a 6 outter its with a hand like king or queen high so hell usually follow through on the river on a bluff anyway, so why chase the 6 outter out when you can extract another BB from him?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-30-2005, 03:34 AM
mmcd mmcd is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 441
Default Re: Live hand: Bottom pair, ugly river

My turn checkraise was purely for value. I figure to have the best hand on this board, and I know this guy's firing a second barrel on the turn no matter what he has. Also, all of his likely 6-out hands became 10-out hands on the turn. If the river completely blanks, I can't count on him to fire a 3rd barrel, because it looks like I'm probably calling him down with a marginal made hand like 33 or A-high after I check/call the turn.

And to those that don't think he will consider bluffing A-high on the river, look at all the hands that got there on the J. Any 8, KQ, KJ, QJ, AJ. It's certainly not unreasonable for him to think he can get me off a baby pair, a 5, or a 7. And although it would be pretty sweet to value bet and get called by a worse hand, the possibility of a bluff raise really concerns me here, and I really don't want to put in 2 bets on the river on that board with bottom pair. (he knows I'm capable of value-betting him thin, and I had already snapped off 1 river bluff raise from him earlier with an unimproved AK)
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-30-2005, 04:25 AM
StellarWind StellarWind is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 704
Default Re: Live hand: Bottom pair, ugly river

[ QUOTE ]
My turn checkraise was purely for value.

[/ QUOTE ]
I asked a friend [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] what he likes to have for a 5-handed opening and fed it into PokerStove. Against my friend you are a 55-45 underdog on the turn.

So I'm not really sure what value this checkraise offers. What hand range are you putting this guy on?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-30-2005, 05:17 AM
mmcd mmcd is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 441
Default Re: Live hand: Bottom pair, ugly river

Any 2 10-A, 44+, any suited ace, A4o+, with maybe some suited connectors thrown in (but not with 100% frequency).
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.