Why Can't I Move Up?

[Dave H.]

I'm almost embarrassed...no, dammit, I AM embarrassed to admit this. In fact, if I didn't know for a fact that others have experienced it, I WOULDN'T admit it...I CAN'T MOVE TO THE NEXT LEVEL.

Ok, now that I've admitted it, I'm waiting for relief...I knew it, I still feel bad!

I started at .02/.04 about a year and a half ago with $12 of "their" money. I've only invested "my own money" in 4 books (the best ones suggested on this site) and they're worn out from having been read so many times. I wouldn't advance until I had the required 300 BB for the next level and then I'd require an extra 100 BB cushion for myself before advancing. When I moved up, I made a promise to myself that, if I got hit immediately with a 50 BB loss, I'd move back down until I regained the loss. Well, that 50 BB loss never happened immediately, so I never had to move down.

I played through the .02/.04, .05/.10, .10/.20, and .25/.50 levels and it took me until last April to get the required bankroll ($400 in my case) to play the .50/$1 tables.

When I had the bankroll to play $1/$2 ($800), I put my big toe in, won a few hands, and chickened right out. I did this several times, but couldn't muster the WHATEVER to continue and dropped back down to .50/$1 again. Then when I had enough to play $2/$4 ($1600), I tried the $1/$2 and the $2/$4 tables. The same *&(%$# thing happened. I won a little money, and then that ridiculous fear overpowered me and I moved back down to .50/$1

I even took a shot at $3/$6 when my roll got to $2,400 and won there and backed down again!!!

My sample size at $1/$2, $2/$4, and $3/$6 is ridiculously low so I certainly can't say I'm a winner at those levels by any stretch of the imagination.

I don't play a lot of bonuses and I have rakeback at only two sites, so those two items haven't contributed a great deal to my winnings. I have now played approximately 200,000 hands at .50/$1 and have a win rate (EXclusive of rakeback and bonuses) of 10 BB per hour playing roughly 20 hours per week over the last 10 months and 4 tabling for the most part.

I obviously have WAAAY more than I need, even for a shot at $5/$10. I have about $9,000 now.

I was a very conservative player initially and it took a lot to go from weak passive to weak tight to TAG, but advice on this forum got me there.

Can I get some opinions, advice, comments, and maybe hear from others who are experiencing, or have experienced this kind of "move up" fear. It's really the only thing I hate about poker!

Thanx much!

[soko]

[ QUOTE ]
It's really the only thing I hate about myself !

[/ QUOTE ]

Play where you feel comfortable, there are swings and if the money means so much that a downswing at a higher level will shatter your emotions just play at a lower limit until you feel comfortable. the money obviously means more than it should.

The players arent that much better when you move up, it just becomes more rare to find a chip spewing money donator.

It's the old cliche, you never know until you try!

I was somewhat in the same shoes as you for a time, I deposit $200 with $100 bonus and play .5/1 for about 5 months up to $1600, I give 1/2 a try and lose about $300 in about 1000 hands, it devastated me so much I quit for about 3 months. Decided I was going to reread SSHE, Came back and redeposited the money and jumped right in to $2/4, Have been up since but not without some violent swings (both emotions and bankroll) but I laugh at the idea of me ever moving back down to .5/1, 1/2, no way.

[rwanger]

If you multitable...try making just 1 of those tables the next limit up from where you are comfortable.

If you have a real job, convince yourself that you have limited time to play poker, and need to make it worth your time (thus, play for higher stakes).

I used to be afraid every time I moved up, but now it doesn't happen as much anymore. I'm not sure why, but part of the reason is because I am overrolled for the limit I'm stepping up to, so the money doesn't matter. I'm more excited by the prospect of making more $/hr.

Do you play a lot of tournaments? I've found that after I finally hit the point where I understood just how aggressive you need to be in tournaments (in order to live, you must be willing to die), chips at the table started to lose their value in terms of real money. They are just chips. All that matters is the size of your bet/call/raise compared to the amount in the pot. Making correct decisions has nothing to do with actual $ amounts.

[Bats]

Why do you play poker? What are your goals? Starting with $100, over the past year I've built that to $400 slowly moved up from .05/.1 to .5/1 and 1/2. About four times I've ventured into 2/4. That does scare me since it's beyond my bankroll, but the level of play wasn't that much tougher than 1/2. (Maybe it goes up exponentially at some point.) In any event, my goal is to make a few hundred bucks a month to buy some extra toys and dinners out. I think I can do that when I move to 2/4 or maybe 3/6.

So, why do you want so badly to move up? And more to the point, why are you so afraid of losing money? You are clearly very careful about playing within your means, so going bankrupt probably isn't an issue. How old are you? Are you a college kid or (like me) a middle aged man with kids to support? I came from a low-income family, and even though I'm now comfortably middle-class, I stil have problems buying some little extras that I can logically afford. Somehow if I can buy them with poker money, it doesn't count as being a spendthrift. Identifying why you are afraid of losing a little money that you can probably afford might help with the fear. To overcome it, do what you've started doing, but make yourself committ to a low, but very certain number of hours a week at the next level, win or lose. I suspect you'll win, or at least not lose very much, and you'll become more comfortable.

Again - try to identify WHY you are afraid of losing the money.

play NL, limit sucks

[AlanBostick]

First, read this and let it sink in: Hooray for you! You have developed into a winning player, and that's no small accomplishment. You deserve to feel proud of it. What's more, you adopted a very sound bankroll management policy and stuck to it, and have been rewarded with an enviable bankroll. You have been wise where many players, even solid winners otherwise like yourself, have been foolish.

Secondly, you don't have to move up if you don't really want to. If you find yourself comfortable playing at $0.50-$1 and uncomfortable playing at $1-$2, then by all means continue playing at $0.50-$1. There is no law that says that winning poker players must move up in playing limits.

Next, you've won yourself quite a bankroll there, much more than you need to play at $1-$2, or even $3-$6. Maybe it would do you some good to take some money out of your account. You can take $1000 out with essentially no impact on risk of ruin at the limits you've been playing or express interest in playing. It would be reasonable to take $2000 or even $5000 or more out, especially if you were satisfied to play at your current level.

One way to look at it is that you've taken $12 of someone else's money and ran it up almost a thousand-fold. That's an incredible accomplishment. Suppose you took just $1000 out, and then through the worst possible luck you lost all the rest. You would still then have $1000 (or the things that $1000 could buy) that you wouldn't have if you hadn't played.

Go ahead, and take money out of your accounts. Buy yourself a new computer, a home entertainment system, fine clothes, fine food, a trip to Puerto Vallarta, a couple of Berkshire Hathaway 'B' shares, first and last month's rent on a new apartment, that used Mercedes you've been eyeing, ... or whatever you want. You deserve to taste the fruit of your success.

All of this has nothing to do with your specific question, about why you can't move up.

To answer that question involves a fair amount of self examination on your part. What was it actually like when you took shots at higher games? Does playing at $1-$2 involve crossing some line that you hadn't crossed before? How is it different to try to play $1-$2 than it was to start playing $0.50-$1 when you had been playing $0.25-$0.50?

Why do you play poker at all? How do you feel about the idea of winning or earning significant money from the game? How do you feel about the idea of losing significant money?

In the end, nobody but you can answer the question of why you aren't moving up. Other people can help you (e.g. a psychologist, therapist, or other counselor), but the real work has to be done by you yourself. And finding the answer might result in your being able to move up ... or it might result in coming to terms with and simply accepting that answer.

[Dave H.]

tyVM for your very thoughtful reply.

I'd love to hear from others...especially those who are experiencing or have experienced this fear.

[Buck_65]

Honestly, you may want to seek out an affordable therapist if you don't have one already. Sometimes fear can control our lives, and the root of your problem likely has nothing to do with poker or the money itself.

I see a counselor about twice a week to discuss "little" things like what you're experiencing. It can always be traced to a root issue within yourself that needs to be dealt with. I have a lot of the same fears, actually. A ton of players on 2+2 are over-rolled for their limit, myself included. It is nice to stay where you're comfortable, but you gotta get used to taking more risks. Once you realize that what you're doing now will never get you where you want to be, it will be easier for you to move up.

If you have someone in your life who you can talk to openly about your fears, it will be a tremendous plus for you. I hope you don't take any offense, and if I'm way off base then disregard my post. However, I'm not unlike yourself by the sounds of it, and with the help of others you can make anything possible. Really.

[bb88]

I'll tell you what, I'm in very much the same position you are. I play 1/2 right now, and have the roll so that I could jump into 5/10 properly bankrolled tomorrow if I wanted to. This summer, I took a shot at 2/4, got smoked, and took a long break, tried 2/4 again, got smoked, and I've moved back down again.

I'm going to play 1/2 until I win back what I lost playing 2/4 and then some. I wanted to make sure whenever I move up I am comfortable. If you aren't completely comfortable then don't consider moving up. Wait it out, and you'll be fine in the end. I still plan on playing 5/10 at some point, but I'm in no rush. You shouldn't be either. Hopefully we'll notice each other sometime at a great 1,000/2,000 game and think "my, how things changed".

[UATrewqaz]

Ditto to me, solid winner at .5/1 and 1/2, dabbled in 2/4 and 3/6 with good results (very small sample of course)

My current role is 3400+ and I'm still playing .5/1 and 1/2

[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I need to grow some stones.

My greatest fear is that I'll move up and immediately hit a huge downswing and then feel like I blew a ton of money.