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#1
09-29-2005, 04:57 PM
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folding in +EV situations during SNGs...
In this thread, Megabet, myself, and a few others have been debating whether to take slight edges early in tournaments when you have the pot odds to, but losing means busting out of the tournament. I think it's an interesting debate and I wanted to make a new thread since the title of the original had to do with an AK $55 hand and maybe not everyone had read the actual debate within. I'd like to get as many opinions on this as possible.
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#2
09-29-2005, 05:04 PM
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Re: +EV vs. +money
wiggs, I understand where you are coming from and it is the Harrington approach. However, Harrington is referring mainly to MTTs and is generally more of a tight player.
In SNGs, I believe if you have the odds to make a call then you should do so, even early in the game. If you play a lot at the higher levels (as I do), good players will catch on pretty quickly that you don't want early confrontations and this will be very very -EV to you in the long run. That's just my approach. I don't think calling this thread "+EV v +money" is accurate either, because of course you want to maximise your return.
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#3
09-29-2005, 05:13 PM
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Re: +EV vs. +money
Your big edges come later on in the tournament when you push much better than any of your opponents. While you should be looking to get yourself into +EV situations early on, neutral EV or very marginally +EV situations should be avoided because you have such a larger edge later on in the tournament. For largely this reason and a couple more relating to the dynamics of an sng that I don't think I'm totally qualified to discuss, the increase in $EV of doubling up is not proportionate to the $EV of busting out of a tourney.
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#4
09-29-2005, 05:27 PM
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Re: +EV vs. +money
[ QUOTE ]
Your big edges come later on in the tournament if you push much better than any of your opponents. [/ QUOTE ] FYP. At the lower levels, you can probably take it as a given that this is the case. Given that, it does not make sense to subject yourself to early close calls when you can generate a large advantage over the field just by playing a good mathematical late game. At higher levels, you have no such expectation that a good late push/fold game gives you a large advantage over the field. Since you can't depend on this, you are more correct (and it is more necessary) to exploit much smaller early edges. It's only correct to pass up a small advantage now for a big advantage later when you indeed expect to have a big advantage later.
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#5
09-29-2005, 05:37 PM
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Re: +EV vs. +money
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Your big edges come later on in the tournament if you push much better than any of your opponents. [/ QUOTE ] FYP. At the lower levels, you can probably take it as a given that this is the case. Given that, it does not make sense to subject yourself to early close calls when you can generate a large advantage over the field just by playing a good mathematical late game. At higher levels, you have no such expectation that a good late push/fold game gives you a large advantage over the field. Since you can't depend on this, you are more correct (and it is more necessary) to exploit much smaller early edges. It's only correct to pass up a small advantage now for a big advantage later when you indeed expect to have a big advantage later. [/ QUOTE ] Aha!! Great post! I play at the higher levels where most people know how to push/fold. Therefore I take my +EV call because a large stack early, if played right, will likely get you in the money. My posts here assume the higher levels. If playing at the lower levels where a good player has a much higher advantage over the field, I can see why folding would work.
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#6
09-29-2005, 05:47 PM
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Re: +EV vs. +money
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Your big edges come later on in the tournament if you push much better than any of your opponents. [/ QUOTE ] FYP. At the lower levels, you can probably take it as a given that this is the case. Given that, it does not make sense to subject yourself to early close calls when you can generate a large advantage over the field just by playing a good mathematical late game. At higher levels, you have no such expectation that a good late push/fold game gives you a large advantage over the field. Since you can't depend on this, you are more correct (and it is more necessary) to exploit much smaller early edges. It's only correct to pass up a small advantage now for a big advantage later when you indeed expect to have a big advantage later. [/ QUOTE ] Aha!! Great post! I play at the higher levels where most people know how to push/fold. Therefore I take my +EV call because a large stack early, if played right, will likely get you in the money. My posts here assume the higher levels. If playing at the lower levels where a good player has a much higher advantage over the field, I can see why folding would work. [/ QUOTE ] And I play primarily at the 11s and 22s, which is probably why I'm more inclined to not take early coinflips. I think there are much safer ways to build a stack at these levels.
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#7
09-29-2005, 05:49 PM
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Re: +EV vs. +money
I play the 33s and have the same logic as you, i dont take early coinflips either...i believe its a solid strategy at the 33s, so when you move up, i think your style will will hold up. I just got called out for saying screw +EV in this situation, i fold and fight later...
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#8
09-29-2005, 06:14 PM
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Re: +EV vs. +money
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Your big edges come later on in the tournament if you push much better than any of your opponents. [/ QUOTE ] FYP. At the lower levels, you can probably take it as a given that this is the case. Given that, it does not make sense to subject yourself to early close calls when you can generate a large advantage over the field just by playing a good mathematical late game. At higher levels, you have no such expectation that a good late push/fold game gives you a large advantage over the field. Since you can't depend on this, you are more correct (and it is more necessary) to exploit much smaller early edges. It's only correct to pass up a small advantage now for a big advantage later when you indeed expect to have a big advantage later. [/ QUOTE ] Aha!! Great post! I play at the higher levels where most people know how to push/fold. Therefore I take my +EV call because a large stack early, if played right, will likely get you in the money. My posts here assume the higher levels. If playing at the lower levels where a good player has a much higher advantage over the field, I can see why folding would work. [/ QUOTE ] And I play primarily at the 11s and 22s, which is probably why I'm more inclined to not take early coinflips. I think there are much safer ways to build a stack at these levels. [/ QUOTE ] And hence our difference in opinion. I can see a donk at the $11s pushing AA or KK, but I would find it hard to believe many people would at the $109s upwards...at least not regularly enough for me to fold AK. Or if my advantage is great enough that early coinflips don't make sense.
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#9
09-29-2005, 05:30 PM
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Re: +EV vs. +money
"the increase in $EV of doubling up is not proportionate to the $EV of busting out of a tourney."
This isn't necessarily so since ICM only looks at stack size, and not the skill/strengths/weaknesses of the person behind that stack. Edited to add that ICM also doesn't include the fact that busting out early gives you great turnover of sngs/hr.
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#10
09-29-2005, 05:23 PM
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Re: folding in +EV situations during SNGs...
I personally think that many people overplay AK early in SnG's. In the hand in question from megabet's post, I feel like folding is defiantley the best option.
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