20/40 Getting aggressive

[Roland]

Calm down uwda. I’m sure Mike didn’t post this hand to boast about his awesome poker skills but because he thought it ws interesting and he played it correctly.



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Isnt it all relative though? I mean, If I am right here and I'm putting money in with the best hand, then it dosent really matter whats in the pot.

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Correct. Here’s my problem though:
You belive you have a small edge - lets say you figure you’re a 55-45 favorite on average. The thing is you have to be real sure about this in this ante structure. If this game had a $3 ante things would be different… even if you messed up and are actually a 55-45 dog, you’d still win that extra $1.80. Or if this had been 6 handed instead of 4-handed. As it is though, the risk-reward ratio just sucks in that game.
I know you know this stuff, but what else can I say.


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I think several players (Roland you're especially one of the ones I have in mind) could play more hands and show a much larger profit than they do now.


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Well, I don’t know. You must be over-estimating my skills because every time I try to loosen up I crash and burn.
I’ve tried $3/$6 even, just to see if I would do better playing more hands in looser structure. I have a lot of problems there though - I think because most marginal hands need to get heads-up to show a profit, but those guys just never fold. 3Q3 isn’t all that profitable 5-way…

Probably I just suck. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[Mac]

I agree that the guys who are really killing the mid-limit stud games are playing more hands than I do. To that end, I think it's necessary to begin talking about profitable situations for pushing hands we wouldn't normally push.

uwda's coming out hard because the original post was punkish (by design, i think). My only problem is that in this specific hand, the move comes without a read on opponent. I would have liked it more if you said "i pushed this hard because of X", the aggression appears almost random.

- Mac

[MichaelOar]

4th st is fine, but you're looking at big trouble once he pairs 5th. Maybe it's just me, but when he leads out, it isn't to represent 2 pr, it's because he doesn't want to miss a bet. If he were looking to make a play, I think many guys would check-raise here.

As someone else pointed out, in the best case scenario, he has something like (Ks Jc) Ac, you are just a small favorite. If he has a buried pair over fours or the Ace, you are big dog. You're also never going know where you're at until the showdown, as I think some guys are going to shut down after your 5th st raise even with aces up. Assuming he isn't a wuss, though, you can look forward to getting raised if he makes 2 pr. Personally, I don't think this is the kind of extra hand S+M+Z were referring to, because it is so difficult to know where you stand.

I don't think you mentioned anything in your original post, but did you put him on a hand, or were you just making a move for its own sake?

Michael

[LostMyCaseMoney]

Admittedly I'm too tight when playing Stud but I make the same play on fourth and fold on fifth. You're slightly ahead or way behind. You have no reason to think he's capable of laying down any sort of hand and raising there what are you going to when he three bets or leads on sixth. The little edge you might have will not make up for the times you're behind.

[lane mcbride]

4 handed, I don't hate it at all. I think you are most likely ahead unless he is a tricky player. you really aren't losing to many hands unless he limped with aces or a concealed pair. the only thing I'm afraid of is a third four (which I don't think he had).

I would say most likely he limped with ace high maybe akx or aj10 or something... and bet fourth as a "delayed steal"
on fifth when he pairs, I give him credit for a pair of fours and that's about it, I think it is just another attempt to continue his steal since he caught a little something. I think your fives are most likely ahead, but I tend to get a little aggressive short-handed, so perhaps take it for what it's worth.

out of curiosity, what do you do if he three bets fifth street? what about if he leads out sixth?

-lane

[MRBAA]

Here's my problem with this specific hand:

I'm fine with the raise on fourth -- you may have the best hand, you may not. I often play split aces by limping in a four way game, but I also would play hands like (JQ)A, three flush, (22)A. But when he calls on fourth and makes an open pair on fifth and bets...the gig's up. Small pots in short games, got to be able to do that old raise/fold thing. Cause if he does have aces up, or even sixes up, you in trouble.

At 2/4, when I do not have a read on a player, I assume loose/passive. This is why I fold 5th.
However, I also know that the 5th st raise will sometimes work right there and then or on later streets and I guess it would be that much more effective at higher stakes.

[TheSalche]

I don't play at the higher limits (cause I like my money), but theres a few things curious about this guys' place.

1) He limped with an ace in a pretty good steal spot, all he really had to worry about was the queen. What do we think of villain's limp here? Does it mean he likely just has three high cards? Is he limping with split aces to "slowplay" them? Three spades is a possibility but not as likely as the other two. Maybe hes limping with some K X A?

2) Villain bet out twice with the better board and called a raise from Mike. When I play like this, it usually means I have aces up, and somehow my gut says "maybe hes rolled up ... get to a cheap showdown." That doesn't mean villain is playing like that too, but its a possibility. Another thing, if the villain really doesn have two high cards in the hole, shouldn't he be folding because you are representing something like rolled up or a big pair in the hole. Hero's board suggests that neither street helped much (except 99 in the hole).

Just a few things to ponder.

My personal take: there's a difference between pushing small edges and chip spewing blind aggression, this seems like spewage to me.

[Andy B]

I think the raise on fourth is fine, although I would tend to lean towards calling or maybe folding. I think fifth is a fold, though. If you are ahead, it's not by much. You're probably behind, and you may well be crushed. I presume that you made this raise in the hopes that the other guy would fold, but I think that's a lot to ask for.

[blumpkin22]

Mike will not get people to stop playing ABC poker because it is too easy to beat small games playing ABC.

But as you move up in limits and play in tougher games, plays like this one are important to add to one's arsenal. Otherwise, you will constantly wonder why people are always folding when you have the nuts.