Ed Miller's book "versus" WLLH

[Lee Jones]

Hi all -
I've been reading the posts about Ed's new book (but haven't gotten my hands on a copy yet). I expect that many of you would like to have him and me initiate some debate on points on which we disagree.

I think that would be an interesting and informative thing for all. However, I'm uncomfortable with the tenor of some of Ed's posts. Here's why:

He says things such as my book is "full of errors" and is (in places) "plain wrong".

I tend to use words like "error" and "wrong" when dealing with facts. I am extremely hesitant to use those words when what we're talking about are opinions, intuitions, experieces, etc.

Now, does this make me a weak-tight author? I don't think so. Unless Ed has gotten access to a large database of online hand histories and done a statistical analysis to see whether his ideas or mine are "correct", then he is offering his opinion and intuition and experience. Just as I did when I wrote WLLH.

If I got the "pot odds" numbers wrong, if I had mis-stated the probability of flopping a set - those are "errors". I think it's irresponsible, and not constructive to the conversation, to couch much else on the topic of (e.g.) post-flop hold'em play as "right" or "wrong".

That said, I will, time permitting, be happy to discuss any specific technical points on which Ed and I disagree, though we should probably take those discussions over to Small Stakes Hold'em, n'est-ce pas?

Regards, Lee

[Syntax]

Lee, I have been swearing by your book for years. I have won over 15k playing up to 2/4 holdem online by using the strategies in WLLH. I've used you ideas in SNG's quite effectivly as well.

A couple months ago, I took a couple of Ed's quizes and scored like 8-9/10 on each one. The ones I got wrong all involved playing a little more passively when he advises I should have been raising. Since then I have taken Ed's advice very seriously and raised many more pots I would have only called with in the past. My results have improved significantly. I was probably one of the first pre-orders for the book. I anticipate Ed's book to be the finest on loose games out there. I think WLLH will still be better for a new player just starting out because Ed's concepts rely heavily on odds and may hurt a new player thinking they can raise ATs anytime. I think Ed's book will take low limit holdem to the next level.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Syntax:

I think you have it about right. My opinion is that the current edition of WLLH is okay for someone starting out (while the previous edition was well below the okay level). SSH will show how to play these games at an optimum level, but it is not a beginner's book.

Best wishes,
Mason

[astroglide]

Unless Ed has gotten access to a large database of online hand histories and done a statistical analysis to see whether his ideas or mine are "correct"

is this something you have done or intend to do with your access to pokerstars?

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi astroglide:

You make a very good point. I think it's safe to assume that Jones didn't do this either when he produced his first book. I also don't think he did it when the second edition came along either.

Best wishes,
Mason

[andyfox]

Hi Mason,

But Lee didn't say Ed was wrong or made errors. His point, if I understand it corectly, it that he couldn't without the access to the database. But how then could Ed say Lee is wrong without that access?

Regards,
Andy

[Easy E]

In one corner, our reiging champion, Lee "Second Time was the NUTS!" Jones ! <font color="blue"> [cue crowd roaring] </font>

In the other corner, Ed "New Ruler of Low-Limit" Miller! <font color="blue"> [more crowd noise] </font>

A heads up holdem $2/4 match to the death, to determine WHO is the true low-limit author god!


<font color="blue"> Now, do we schedule this match BEFORE or AFTER July 15th? If before, and the reigning champ retains his title, will we have to use the EM book as toliet paper, ala Dances with Wolves ?? </font>

and, waiting in the wings.... Randy "I bit*h-slapped Mason's momma!" Burgess!!

<font color="gray"> (hey, if it works for JV and Dynasty.... )

[Glenn]

Now you are starting to get it! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[eh923]

I hope you're kidding. A heads up match doesn't exactly settle whose ideas are more profitable in a ring game full of loose players.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
I hope you're kidding. A heads up match doesn't exactly settle whose ideas are more profitable in a ring game full of loose players.

[/ QUOTE ]
Revise the challenge to be some sort of competition to see who can win the most either in a certain period of time or a certain number of hands/sessions at 2/4 either online or B&amp;M.